Rambling 289: The Neighborhood of Paradise

Where is Paradise? What is the history of this mysterious place? What is the true purpose of this hidden Neighborhood Town? The duo finally deep dive into the most mysterious neighborhood in the United States. Nearly impossible to locate, almost no information about it and the strangest circumstances surrounding the area around the neighborhood. The truth about this place will be revealed.

+Episode Details

Topics Discussed:

  • West Milford New Jersey
  • Secret Dirt Road
  • Google Maps
  • Private Residency
  • Public Records
  • Personal Accounts
  • Resources and Food
  • Extremely Strange Details

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+Transcript

Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.

Jack: Going live in 5, 4.

Cristina: What does live mean?

Jack: Welcome to the Rambling Podcast. I'm your host, Jack.

Cristina: And I'm your host, Christina.

Jack: And this is the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas. And boy, oh, boy, our ideas can get quite, quite baffled today. There is so much baffling to happen, but this requires us to kind of unpack a little something that we've been dealing with lately. So in the previous episode, we were dealing with the Minotaur, a creature from Greek mythology, which turned out to just basically be some kind of freak show experiment.

Cristina: Two of them.

Jack: Two of them. The Toro Boban and the Minotaur, which are related and unrelated simultaneously, like they're brothers. Not the same thing. Although both creatures were discussed in mythology for God knows how long as one thing.

Cristina: That's pretty crazy.

Jack: Yes. Now, one of the things that we realized discussing these creatures was a pattern that we'd noticed before elsewhere, which was where these creatures were. The labyrinth.

Cristina: Labyrinth. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jack: And the labyrinth is identical to a different location we're very familiar with, which is the house of this lady who was messing with ghosts and creating sort.

Cristina: Of made a labyrinth.

Jack: Yeah. Her house was a labyrinth. Slowly and meticulously built. She stopped contractors from coming in and assisting because she knew they couldn't figure it out. The way she needed it done was very specific. And so the labyrinth, although the construction of the labyrinth isn't specified, the purpose of the labyrinth is kind of clear. Opposite to the lady's house mansion, where the purpose of the labyrinth was not explained, but the construction. Yes. And we can assume one informs the other. We can assume that the labyrinth where the Toro Boban was was very meticulously built and that the purpose of the mansion being a maze was for the same reason that we're formed. The labyrinth is for that entrance, for the entrance at the center, the seance room and the entrance at the Minotaur Guards Y are one in the same, and, well, not literally one the same, but identical in use and purpose. And this was quite illuminating to find this pattern because it told us about the third location that we have maybe been looking in the wrong places this entire time.

Cristina: Somewhere in Clinton Road.

Jack: Somewhere in Clinton Road. Now, we've looked at the castle, we've brushed over Paradise Road. We've looked at the mines, we've looked at the woods, the bridge, the lake, and we just don't find what we're looking for.

Cristina: I mean, it could be in the mines. We have no idea.

Jack: It could totally be in the mines. But the mines are just connected to the castle.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So it's all one somehow. And then the surface level, because again, the mines in the bottom of the castle are connected underground. And then the top layer is a jumbled mess of. You pop it in here. Come over there. You can see this over here. You can see that over there, a weird mess that kind of feels like the maze, but not exactly, because you're not popping in and out. You're not getting lost in this space and popping up in that space. Literally, you're seeing them. But there is a place that behaves like that that, again, we've brushed over, but never really focused on in great detail because the lady in white doesn't seem to be there. The boy doesn't seem to be there. It doesn't seem to be any particular experiments taking place there.

Cristina: But you hear children there, or at least your experience children.

Jack: Yes. And there's reports of that. Yes.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: Which is not Paradise Road, but Paradise itself. The neighborhood town.

Cristina: An actual real town.

Jack: It's a neighborhood.

Cristina: Is. Yes. But, like, that's the. What you think is the hotspot. The.

Jack: I don't think it's a hotspot is what fits. Yeah, it fits the maze description. Because my personal experience in there was the roads were shifting. We took a straight line. We went on the dirt road named. We went on the road named paradise that became a dirt road and went into an indescript road that took us to Paradise. From paradise, we go in a straight line, no turns. We see houses to the left, woods to the right. We make it to what seems like the other end, do a K turn. So we're looking back where we started. Go in a straight line and don't find the exit.

Cristina: That is weird.

Jack: So a clean 180 back from where we came, except no longer was the dirt road. We came from there.

Cristina: That's such a crazy story, but has anyone experienced such a thing?

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: What? What? What? What?

Jack: Okay, Exactly. So let's unpack what we know about Paradise. So paradise is, as we know, located around Clinton Road in the West Milford, like, forest region.

Cristina: It's a small town in the forest.

Jack: It's a neighborhood that feels kind of like a town.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: And the. I looked at this on Google Maps to kind of, like, try to zone in, and it's way specific. Now, in the Google Maps overview, you can't actually get a street view all the way through Paradise. Now, it goes as Follows Clinton Road, goes up the right side. You're just looking. You're looking at Google Maps right now. You got a square screen in front of you. To your right, Clinton Road is just going straight up. We're zoomed in, only on Paradise Road. So Clinton Road starts, and it just goes through the whole screen and keeps going. You don't see it. It's just the piece that you do see. And the beginning and ending out of your sight. Okay, Now, a random in the script road connects to Paradise. You can enter Paradise Road from another street elsewhere. Okay, Perfectly fine. And Paradise Road just kind of winds, goes around. It takes a nice little kind of left loop and then connects to a different town. Perfectly fine.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Now, between the left entrance of the town of the Paradise Road, the first, whatever the f*** the name of that road is that connects, there's an immediate neighborhood there and the bottom entrance. So to the left of your screen, you would have one entrance. It goes right, winds down the exit to the bottom. It's very small road. The exit to the bottom connects to two roads. The one that connects to Clinton, and again, just another part of a main road somewhere. Mm, the left entrance. You cannot do a street view starting there. Now, you can see that whole neighborhood there from the Google Maps top. It's a visible neighborhood. And if you were to drop your pin on that road to the left, even if you can't get a street view going through the street into the neighborhood, you can see the neighborhood from the street. You can drop the pin perfectly fine. The other end at the bottom of the screen, you could drop the pin there, and you can go on Paradise Road about halfway up before, in Google Maps, on the street view, it just turns into a dirt road. Suddenly you're just moving, and it's paved, paved, paved. And then the pave just kind of ends and fizzles out. And now it's just a dirt road.

Cristina: And that's what you remember, a dirt road. Right.

Jack: It's not the dirt road I remember specifically, but I'll get to that. Okay, but this road just becomes a dirt road suddenly. And you can't go farther with the street view. It stops right there. You cannot move farther beyond that point. Now, this gives you a bit of a loop, begins loops, connects to the other side. The loop area starts at the neighborhood, goes, and then connects to where it becomes paved again, that loop area, you cannot see it on Google Maps from Street View. You can only see the road from Google Maps skyview from the top down. Okay? The road that's in the script that connects to paradise comes out of that side you cannot see on the street view. Additionally, the road that connects cannot be seen from the sky view because it's covered by the forest. Oh, I looked for it and I couldn't find it. It doesn't exist. It's there.

Cristina: It's there underneath.

Jack: Underneath the trees. It's such a literal dirt road. It doesn't exist from the sky view. And Google Maps literally doesn't allow you to explore it. To explore it.

Cristina: Maybe it doesn't see it as a road though, because you said it's trees.

Jack: It's trees. Yeah. It's covered by trees.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Very weird.

Cristina: That is weird.

Jack: Very strange. Who the h*** knows? Okay, okay, here's the literal view I'm talking about. So for reference, down here is Clinton Road.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: This is Clinton Road all going up. This is the road that connects the Paradise Road. There's many different ways you can connect. A little neighborhood down there. You can also see there's a little.

Cristina: Neighborhood over here, what's considered Paradise Road.

Jack: This entire thing is Paradise Road. Okay, now, weird fact right here. If I were to grab a little thingy. Oh, I can't. I gotta zoom in a little more. Let me go in a little deeper. But you see that neighborhood right up there, Right? It's visible right here.

Cristina: Okay. Yeah.

Jack: Okay, now you see what's happening here?

Cristina: I'm not sure what's happening.

Jack: Oh, my God. Yeah, I can't drop the pin in the neighborhood. I can't.

Cristina: The line is. It has to be blue for you to drop it in. Is that what's happening?

Jack: Okay, yes. And if I go down to the other end, I can again show you. Interesting.

Cristina: No? Yeah. There's specific, but it sees it as a road.

Jack: So I can definitely knows and it sees it as a road.

Cristina: Yeah, but you can't go into those towns. There's some towns there that looks like you can't look at the road.

Jack: Yeah, sure. That's totally fine. What we're looking at is paradise and specific. There's many locations you can't look at. It's. Why is this the specific location we can't look at? And you see how it was paved at some point. You can see that it's paved underneath it, but it's slowly getting more dirt focused as we go.

Cristina: Eventually it just be there.

Jack: Eventually it's just going to be dirt. It just kind of fizzles out deeper and deeper. And it doesn't matter the dark distance we go slowly but surely we hit this very point where it just completely becomes rocks.

Cristina: Oh, yeah.

Jack: Oh, it's just. It's just rocks now.

Cristina: It's just rocks. Yeah.

Jack: And now I can't even go. It just became totally rocks that the street fizzled out and I can't go farther.

Cristina: That's it. That is weird.

Jack: Yep.

Cristina: But that's still the road.

Jack: That's still Paradise Road. They could have easily just driven. It's still a road. It's a drivable road. It's clearly drivable. Why did the Google Scanner driver not want to go there? Who told the Google scanner driver, don't go beyond this point? And how does this make any sense if the neighborhood on the other end is clearly a functioning, elaborate neighborhood and you can jump into that neighborhood as you saw previously? No.

Cristina: Oh, I saw in the bottom. I wasn't looking up there.

Jack: Well, I showed you that there's no way onto here before.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Except for that one road. You can't go onto the.

Jack: You can't enter the beginning of this road.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Weird, right?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Now this is Paradise Road we're looking at. Somewhere on Paradise Road is the access road to the neighborhood of Paradise. This isn't the neighborhood of Paradise.

Cristina: It's not?

Jack: No, it's not. That's just a random neighborhood.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: The neighborhood of paradise was so cluttered by trees that every house within a two foot radius had a fully grown tree directly next to it, which means its roof would be totally covered by trees.

Cristina: So you're saying it's there, but it's not there. Like we can't see it.

Jack: I think we can. And I think that's this circular formation we're looking at here. You can see little spicks of white in a circular formation going on. It's there, but it's hidden. Hidden.

Cristina: That's scary.

Jack: It's visibly in front of our face. You think you can see this whole little area right here fully covered by trees?

Cristina: Yeah. Except there's something in there. Yeah. What?

Jack: And that would mean that the access road must be directly in the area that we can't see.

Cristina: Weird. And we can't even check it out.

Jack: We can't check it out. We can't look at it. We can't do anything without going there ourselves. It would be impossible. There's no other way to investigate. You have to go there.

Cristina: So it's not even like a town we go find, but it is a real town.

Jack: It's there.

Cristina: We can see it there.

Jack: We can see it nice and hidden. We can't Tell where the road begins and ends.

Jack: There's no way to spot the access point.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But it's there because they must be reaching the neighborhood up here somehow. But I remember it being just the. We were just teenagers exploring, and we're like, hey, sketchy dirt road. Let's go on it. And so we did, and we landed at this place. I couldn't tell you exactly where the road is.

Cristina: No.

Jack: But I know in which direction it's going.

Cristina: It's impossible. It's impossible to see, like, how. You had to be there.

Jack: You had to be there. You have to literally be driving this road in order to find it to begin with.

Cristina: It's just. It's not there.

Jack: Yeah. And that road has no name.

Cristina: That road has no name.

Jack: No. Yeah. This is Paradise Road. And Paradise Road leads us to the dirt road, which is somewhere hidden in the woods. No markings. Google doesn't even recognize it as a road. Yet there's still a neighborhood we can see, covered by trees. There is a way there.

Cristina: Weird.

Jack: Additionally, if you look at Paradise Road and you look at Clinton Road, they're about almost equal distances from the neighborhood. In fact, the bottom part of the neighborhood is probably equal. Literally equal distances to both sides. So there might be more than one road in. Unless paradise is the only way. But that means we can maybe drive across Clinton Road and spot in that direction of road. But I did that and didn't find anything.

Cristina: And you typed in Paradise Road and it doesn't pop up.

Jack: No. Paradise Road is this road. Oh, you type in Paradise Road and it'll show you this.

Cristina: Yeah, Paradise, I guess. Can you type in paradise, though?

Jack: No, it won't tell you where the neighborhood is.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: Now you can find information about the neighborhood online. Not a lot.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But the neighborhood is definitely written about and exists, and people have seen it.

Cristina: Yes, but on Google Maps, it does.

Jack: Not exist on Google. Well, yeah, exactly. It tries by any means to pretend this clear formation here, this circular formation doesn't exist.

Cristina: Very strange. That is very strange.

Jack: But clearly. Obviously. Obviously. Come on, bro. Obviously. We're looking at houses stacked in the middle of this.

Cristina: What else could that be?

Jack: What else could that be? In a perfect little circle, too. Yeah, Perfect little circle going on.

Cristina: There's something weird happening in those trees.

Jack: With the largest patch being in the middle.

Cristina: Weird. That's the church. No, that's. That is so strange, because there's something in the woods. There's something in the woods. You can see there's things there, but you can't see what those things are, we can't investigate.

Jack: We have to literally be there in person. There's no way to like weird, weird.

Cristina: Did it have. I guess on Google they have pictures of the town. Is it like very foresty? Because that's ridiculous.

Jack: It looks like it's people's estimated photo. Like it's not really about the town. It might just be neighborhoods surrounding it.

Cristina: Yeah. It could be abandoned town for all I know. I don't understand.

Jack: Yeah, it could totally be an abandoned town. It's odd in general.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: It's a weird view right here.

Cristina: Yes. Is it abandoned? Do you know that? Do you know?

Jack: I don't know what to tell you based on that. If it is, you'll find out as we go through it. But details about this hidden, private, rural as all h*** neighborhood, as we know, located in West Milford, New Jersey. What we just saw, it is tucked away off of the infamous Clinton Road. Very close. But you wouldn't find that considering the area. And the only access point is off of Paradise Road.

Cristina: Yeah, that is weird. Okay.

Jack: Which becomes a dirt road suddenly. Now it doesn't become an undrivable dirt road. Any car, as you saw, any car could easily drive that road.

Cristina: Yeah, it's still a road.

Jack: It's still a clearly clear road. It's a dirt road, but it's not. It's not even bumpy. It was just nice and smooth.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: It's just an unpaved, very smooth road. Any car could easily traverse it. Yeah. And on the other end, it's paved too. It just becomes paved again. It's really just going through this one patch that whoever decided we're gonna pave the road also decided we're gonna stop paving it right here.

Jack: Weird.

Cristina: There has to be reasons for that.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Yeah, super strange. You just decided out of nowhere we're just not gonna finish paving it. We're going to ignore that other neighborhood, not pave through it. And the entire. Just for whatever reason, we're not going to finish connecting it.

Cristina: That road is in itself some weird mystery. Something's happening on that road.

Jack: Strange, right?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Okay. So weird. It's so weird. It just becomes a dirt road that leads to a hard to find access road that we couldn't find from the top. And I know it was weird when we found the access road the first time. We're like, oh, weird dirt road. A legitimate dirt road that just goes where? Let's find out.

Cristina: Yeah, okay.

Jack: Strangest thing ever. So the road, the access road that comes off of paradise, it has no marking. So it's basically a nameless road. That's why we just refer to it by Paradise Road. Because Paradise Road is the only road connecting to it that has name.

Cristina: Okay. But it itself isn't really.

Jack: Yeah, we can assume. Yeah, it's just a random, like, connecting road, if anything. So really, the only way to the neighborhood is Paradise Road. And then this indescript, unnamed, hard to find other road.

Cristina: Mystery Road. Okay.

Jack: Yo, that's beautiful. Mystery Road.

Cristina: All right.

Jack: Interesting. Mystery Road can only be accessed through Paradise Road.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And additionally, Mystery Road is particularly difficult to locate at night because of its completely covered up nature. It's swallowed alive by the surrounding foliage.

Cristina: It's so strange that you even stumble upon it.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, it really is.

Cristina: Because your goal wasn't to go on to Paradise Road or anything. It was just.

Jack: It was just Clinton Road. And we were just trying to scare each other. And we found this other road, jumped on it, and then we somehow found this other. And then before long, we're in Paradise. Yeah, we do remember it. When we get into the neighborhood, there's a sign that says welcome to paradise. That we do remember. And then following that, sinuses beware deaf children. And somebody, you know, sketchly cross one out or whatever. Dead children. But that's really weird. Just getting to it is odd. Just seeing it is weird.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And like we just saw, you can follow it. You can follow paradise and it will not continue weird.

Cristina: But it's weird.

Jack: Suddenly becomes a dirt road weird. And that's less weird than the Google scanner. Just not driving it. Dude. So many dirt roads you have driven. This is the shortest patch ever of dirt road that you could possibly drive. It would have been the easiest job completion ever. It would have taken you three minutes.

Cristina: I don't know, maybe it wasn't. It didn't want to because, like, the. The places in a forest, like, even if they laid that out, you wouldn't see anything. You just have lines in the forest. Right in the Google search.

Jack: Well, no. Why. Why didn't he. Complete driving Paradise.

Cristina: Oh, paradise itself.

Jack: He didn't have to go off of Mystery Road. He could have just kept driving Paradise. It would have taken him three minutes.

Cristina: That's true.

Jack: There's nothing in the way. It's just a dirt road that connects right back to the rest of the town.

Cristina: Because you want us to see Mystery Road. I guess. I guess that's why I was. I don't know.

Jack: It seems like they're protecting that road. Right?

Cristina: Like, even if there's no Reason to go onto that road.

Jack: It's weird.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So definitely cannot be found without going there personally. Already the strangest part. Mm, weird. All right, next. It's primarily a residential area. Paradise Town, the neighborhood town. Now, it contains no business structures, no markets or anything of the sort. It's purely residential. People just live in there.

Cristina: Okay, that's a little weird, but I mean, it's not weird.

Jack: You're surrounded by mad neighborhoods with stores and stuff. And I'm sure a downtown area isn't not too far off. Yeah, it's very countryside where, you know, we all live over here, and I got to drive 20 minutes in the town to get to buy groceries or whatever the f***, you know, that kind of thing. So they kind of just live in there. And the roads of the neighborhood are paved. I remember that specifically. The roads inside the neighborhood are paved, which means people came to pave, stopping short on paradise just to block off that part of the dirt road.

Cristina: And that must be another spot that you enter the town through. Maybe.

Jack: Maybe. And then. But it's not Clinton Road, because I click through just following. There's not one moment in which a road goes left. There's nothing.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And I looked carefully.

Cristina: Strange. Okay. I don't know what.

Jack: But the neighborhood is paved, Meaning somebody came to pave in the neighborhood and just close enough on paradise, but didn't finish paradise or Mystery Road.

Cristina: That is weird.

Jack: Weird pattern. Immediately reminds me of the lady who made the mansion where she let people do some parts, and it was like, no, get the h*** out. I got it. The specifics require me to finish these parts.

Cristina: Mmm.

Jack: Very reminiscent of that.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Of like, nah, I don't need your help anymore.

Cristina: Interesting.

Jack: Weird. Weird. Just looking at this stuff now, because of this nature, even if the neighborhood is paved and most of paradise is paved, it kind of makes the neighborhood exceptionally reclusive and exceptionally isolated from the rest of the world because you'd have to know where to find a dirt road.

Cristina: That's like, how do people even end up moving in there? Huh?

Jack: And another detail is that the primarily residential area has less than 50 homes total. Very small.

Cristina: Less than 50 homes. Wow. That's a small.

Jack: Tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny.

Cristina: It's not a town, though. It's. It's just a neighborhood.

Jack: It's just a neighborhood. But I will continue to call it a neighborhood town because of how removed it is. Yeah, it feels like a town.

Cristina: Yeah, it does.

Jack: Even if it's a neighborhood, it's weird. It's got already a weird vibe that makes it hard to describe in general, but it formed in the early 1950s.

Cristina: 1950S, that's when all that weird stuff was going.

Jack: That's when all the weird s*** was going down. Of course, for reference, I've got the timeline right up here, so we can focus on the things that happened around the 1950s. So leading into it, in 1950, 1952 specifically, was the first reports of the satanic rituals that were happening. 1955 is when the investigations were demanded by the mayor. Previous to that, 1939 was when the sketchy deal took place. So these are the events surrounding the formation of Paradise Road. Not Paradise Road, of the neighborhood of Paradise.

Cristina: Yeah, but who are those people? Where did they come from? Are they part of these cults? Are they part of the water park, whatever they're called?

Jack: Yeah, weird. Weird. Now, paradise formed in the early 1950s and is composed of residents with a tight knit generational like lineage, so that their families today, the people who live there today, they're related, have been primarily related. So this house belonged to my dad, that belonged to my grandma, and I've lived in this neighborhood always. People don't move in, people just live there.

Cristina: Strange.

Jack: People move out. Nobody moves in.

Cristina: But how did they get there? How did they get there? How?

Jack: At some point in the 1950s, they went in there.

Cristina: I know, but like, strange, strange.

Jack: So another weird part is that many of the residents have like lived there their entire lives. So they were born there and they just stay there until the day they die.

Cristina: But I wonder, like, where do they work? They're not there all day.

Jack: It's gonna get weird in a way that's gonna make it look that way. The entire surrounding area is covered by thick foliage, overgrown nature and unmaintained woods, as we've seen, making it impossible to see from any direction, even from on top. To locate through the dirt road, AKA Mystery Road and even access through Paradise Road. It's just invisible unless you know it's there. Yeah, the privacy of that is absurd.

Cristina: That is crazy.

Jack: It's just right there in the middle of New Jersey, invisible to the rest of the world.

Cristina: It's a mystery that you stumbled upon by mere chance.

Jack: Now, weird time based detail. The houses in paradise have extremely old designs, often appearing to be dated to the late 1800s design styles, with exception for a few that could be dated maybe to the 90s at the. At the latest.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So the late 1800s. Many of them look like they were built around that time. But that makes no sense considering the 1950s is when this neighborhood formed.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: With the most modern structures appearing to have been the designs of the 90s.

Cristina: That is weird, too. Like, why would they be.

Jack: So in the past 30 years, no advancement in the structures, which would make sense if you don't want to expand in the houses that are there. Just the houses that are there from now on, but still kind of chooses.

Cristina: To go back like that. Like 1800s.

Jack: Weird. Right.

Cristina: You're in the 1950s. You're not making 1950 styles or whatever is the end style.

Jack: Like, there are some houses that appear to be that, but the oldest structures appear to have a late 1800s kind of aesthetic.

Cristina: Weird.

Jack: Very strange. When we look at public records for this. Right. There is very few period that address the neighborhood of paradise specifically. There's no media mentions. There's no public events ever hosted, and there's no historical records. Private, private, private, private. It's also unclear whether all the residents of the neighborhood are American citizens or if they were just born and never registered. It's unknown how many people actually live in that neighborhood. Because people could have legitimately been born there, never registered, and they could just go to stores locally and stuff, and there'd be no reason for them to ever go into a hospital and, hey, I exist.

Cristina: That is. I don't know what.

Jack: And because we know people don't enter the neighborhood to audit.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Because nobody enters the neighborhood. It's unclear how many people actually live there.

Cristina: But it can't be many. Or can it be many?

Jack: Like 50 houses? If we assume three people per house. You got a lot of people already. That's 150 people.

Cristina: People move out, but people don't move in.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Is that true?

Jack: I don't know. We say multiple generations of people.

Cristina: Oh, yeah. They could just move into other homes that were abandoned.

Jack: No, abandoned home is if they just keep multiplying. We can't just assume extended families live in single houses.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So my grandma lives in the basement. My dad lives on the next floor. I got five kids myself. We all just overpopulated.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Weird.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That's very strange that it's unclear how many people live there. It's theorized that many of the residents have been born and raised within the neighborhood of paradise and have not registered at a local hospital or city hall.

Cristina: But they don't, like, go to school either. Or at least unknown.

Jack: Maybe they have their own schooling, homeschooling. That could happen.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So it basically just results in an impossible calculation. You can't tell how many people actually live in there. And I Have no say about this next part. But this has been claimed by people who have ventured through, which is that the residents aren't too kind to outsiders.

Cristina: But you didn't see anyone, so you wouldn't know.

Jack: I saw zero people.

Cristina: Except for the laughing.

Jack: Laughing that was on the way there. That was on Mystery Road.

Cristina: Oh, it could have been the people.

Jack: 100%. I saw nobody, though.

Cristina: That is strange.

Jack: We saw no one the whole time we were there. Not a soul.

Cristina: Well, people have seen people and they're just normal, un friendly people.

Jack: Unfriendly people say hi, they'll ignore people. That kind of stuff.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Now, the neighborhood is incredibly self sufficient. One of the stranger aspects of it is that it being purely residential. But rarely is anybody seen. Rarely. In fact, most of the claims of there being anybody weren't even about inside the neighborhood. It was from the few times that people have been seen leaving the neighborhood.

Cristina: Oh, my God. So no one goes in or if they have.

Jack: Nobody has seen anybody go in. People have only seen people come out and when they. Hey, can you tell me about the ignored? Hey, I'm kind of lost. Can you. Ignored.

Cristina: What is strange? People like their family. They're just. It sounds like, I guess what people picture, like hillbillies.

Jack: Yes, yes. It's very, very that. It feels like very like off in my area. But if you rarely see people coming in or out, where's the food coming from? Again, you'd assume they're going to the local stores. But nobody's seeing anybody coming in and out.

Cristina: No, but they're surrounded by woods.

Jack: They're surrounded by wood. Do you think they're hunting? I mean, I guess yes.

Cristina: They sound like those type of people. They sound like, yeah, they just live off the land and they live together as a close knit family.

Jack: Definitely has that vibe. Additionally, at the southern edge of the neighborhood, there is a barn.

Cristina: There is a barn.

Jack: So they could be growing their own food.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And hunting for the rest of it and growing the rest in the woods.

Cristina: They have seen people leaving.

Jack: They have seen people leaving. Nobody has ever seen somebody going in shopping. They could be shopping. Hundred percent. And if that's such a small number of people, then one person with a pickup can fill the pickup up with enough groceries, go in and not have to come out for a while. Mm, Totally solvable problem. But the barn would also fix it.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And the fact that they're surrounded by so much thick foliage and woods will also fix it. They could just grow things in the woods. And that also means you could Just hunt the deer and hunt or whatever that's in there.

Cristina: Yeah. We can't even check if any of these guys have a job or anything possible. Yeah.

Jack: We know nothing about them. Right there in the middle.

Cristina: Just hidden. They're all just hidden.

Jack: Just hidden. Weird.

Cristina: That is very strange what is happening.

Jack: There now while the southern edge of the neighborhood has the barn, it gets weirder because it appears that there's a city hall like structure to the northern edge. City hall, they have a meeting point where there's governance or it would seem interesting.

Cristina: So they don't have. If they do have jobs there. No one really knows.

Jack: Nobody really knows.

Cristina: They might just have like a little society there.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: They're policing their streets, they're nursing their people there.

Jack: It could all just be. It's consistently described by outsiders as a self sustained and self efficient neighborhood. They don't require the outside world. Very odd. Now what's weirder about this is that you are in one of the most spoken of places in the entire country, yet you yourself are unknown. The castle. Everybody knows about the mines. Everybody knows about the road. Everybody knows about the lake. Everybody knows about. You're surrounded by all this s*** and nobody knows about you. That's the weirdest part about this.

Cristina: That is so weird. But they're so hidden. They're so hidden.

Jack: They are so. But this many people coming through all the time, you would think a lot of people go through that road. So why don't people going through that road consistently find Mystery Road and just explore? There should just be so many cases of, you know, people trying to scare each other or in the daylight, truly exploring. Let's go in the morning so we have the most amount of time before nightfall and we can truly get a look at everything out here.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That would mean there's only three roads all of Clinton, top to bottom, 10 miles, no lights, no turns. That's one straight shot. You explored that. It took you no time.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Then you got the one turn into Paradise Road and you could travel all of Paradise Road. It would take you all of 10 minutes. And then in that time, how many people would find Mystery Road? It would be a f****** clusterfuck of people consistently finding Mystery Road and exploring that side too.

Cristina: Well, they only go there at night, so maybe it's harder to see.

Jack: I'm sure people go there in the daylight.

Cristina: I know, but just not the same number.

Jack: No, not the same number, but probably a s*** storm of people still. A f*** ton of people probably still go there during the daylight because they're too scared to go there at night. Okay, so where are these excessive numbers of stories? We have so few mentions, there's almost nothing on it. I checked everything.

Cristina: Like how do you keep people. But they're so hidden. They're so well hidden.

Jack: You'd find the road if you're navigating. If you just decided the complete driving on Paradise Road, you would find Mystery Road. Presumably. Unless it's so invisible that you don't even realize it exists. Driving right by it. But we found it.

Cristina: Yes, he found it. I don't know. That's a. That's a mystery itself. I don't know.

Jack: Well, I'll give you the next weird part. Mystery Road people have only ever seen people leaving it at night. Every single report was about night. Nobody has ever even reported seeing Mystery Road in the daytime.

Cristina: So you think Mystery Road doesn't exist in the daytime? I don't know.

Jack: I don't know. It's just. That's a really weird detail. Yeah, because now we're at a category I just called the Fringe.

Cristina: It's.

Jack: These are reports from non residential people that are.

Cristina: That stumble upon Mystery Road.

Jack: To stumble upon Mystery Road. Nobody has ever reported seeing something and it be daylight.

Cristina: It's at night.

Jack: They've only seen people leaving the road at night. If they are seeing the road during the daylight, they're just ignoring it because they don't see anybody coming in around.

Cristina: That could be. That could be.

Jack: Could totally be. But all the mentions of somebody coming out happen at night.

Cristina: Why just that night.

Jack: And nobody claims they've seen anybody go in.

Cristina: And you were there at night and.

Jack: I was there at night. Stumbled by accident onto Mystery Road. It was so obviously there.

Cristina: But you didn't stumble upon anyone. I mean, you did, but not on.

Jack: Not on Mystery Road. It wasn't even Paradise.

Cristina: Paradise. Maybe he came from that place.

Jack: Well, the. A consistent mention on Paradise Road. I didn't experience this and I didn't even know this was happening until I found it. Is that robed and cloaked men have been seen not coming in or out, but wandering around Mystery Road. Like the entrance of Paradise Road to Mystery Road, but also only at night. Which would see exactly what I saw on Clinton Road.

Cristina: They have to live there. They live there. It's a town of cults.

Jack: It sounds like a cult right off the bat.

Cristina: There's a cult lives inside the woods.

Jack: Yeah, checks out. Reminds me of. What was that movie? The movie. Just like that. Whatever. Some movie about them people living in the woods. Hate enough I mean, there's probably crap ton of societies like that too. Just f*** society.

Cristina: We just gotta come over here. That's crazy.

Jack: Weird. But that also explains them being not friendly. Because it's like, you don't belong here. You're in the wrong part of the woods, kid.

Cristina: That guy that you saw, he wasn't like. It wasn't like he was unfriendly. He didn't even like seem to know you existed or did he respond to you?

Jack: Did not acknowledge that we were even present. Didn't look in our direction, no nothing. He kept moving like we weren't there.

Cristina: I mean, that could be seen as unfriendly to other people. Like, it could be that they see something, some guy, and the guy does.

Jack: You know, ignores their existence.

Cristina: Yeah. And then they're like, oh, he's unfriendly.

Jack: It could totally be.

Cristina: It could totally be something like that.

Jack: Some of the reports are that they're just asking for directions and the people completely ignore them. But then this, this has a very, very reminiscent thing to it. What if they literally can't see you? What if they literally have no idea you're there and that's why they're ignoring you?

Cristina: What is that? Would that mean they come from a different time? The houses are 1800s.

Jack: There's something weird.

Cristina: There's something weird happening there.

Jack: Weird. Weird.

Cristina: This has to do with time travel. I don't know what is happening, but.

Jack: If it's time travel, they can still see you. They're just coming from a different time. You go in and you're somewhere else.

Cristina: But like a time bubble, you're seeing into the past.

Jack: Why can you walk where they are? You shouldn't be able to. You would just cross through. Every time bubble is like that. You just cross through. You're on the other side now. Usually they're in weird positions that you'd have to specifically navigate through. But we're talking. You've seen people come out and then you go in that same direction.

Cristina: Nothing happens.

Jack: Nothing happens. Weird.

Cristina: That is weird.

Jack: Now, other reports by people. The roads in the neighborhood. People have gone into paradise. Neighborhood. The roads and homes seem to change positions. I saw the roads change positions. I think our panic didn't allow us to pay attention to the houses. These people have claimed they've seen the same house twice. Driving in a straight line. Identical.

Cristina: Spooky. That's very spooky.

Jack: Yes. That the houses change consistently.

Cristina: The town is haunted. What is happening? It's not a real town or it's a real town. I don't know.

Jack: I don't know. And people have claimed to this site. Can I can definitely speak to this one. People have claimed to have found themselves trapped, driving in circles, unable to find the access road, AKA Mystery Road. Sometimes for several hours. In this small area. Yeah.

Cristina: That is. That is so scary. For some hours.

Jack: Hours. Trying to find the access road. Panicking. Not knowing. And what the f***. It was there the whole time. Maybe it wasn't.

Cristina: Maybe it wasn't. How is the whole place moving? Is it really there? But it looks like it's there. I don't know. And there's people. But are those people really there? They're not even.

Jack: Next point. Nobody who's entered the town has ever seen a person in it. Nobody has ever reported seeing a person after they've gone through Mystery Road into the neighborhood. They've never once seen anyone. Ever. No one has ever seen anybody in paradise.

Cristina: It's a ghost town. It's a ghost town. Maybe. I don't know. No. No. Yes. Maybe. I don't know.

Jack: That's so strange. Nobody has ever seen anyone ever.

Cristina: Never. Never outside of it.

Jack: Just outside of it.

Cristina: And those people don't even see you.

Jack: Those people ignore you like you don't exist.

Cristina: And they're dressed so old fashioned and they sometimes fashion home.

Jack: No. Some people come out in pickups and they'll just ignore you. But they have seen roped people not going in or out. The people they've seen coming out, just normal looking people who are ignoring the out of you. The people hanging around the outside who aren't coming in or out. Robed and cloaked individuals.

Cristina: What is happening? Okay. There was a guy in the pickup though.

Jack: Yeah. They've seen cars come out. People have asked for directions. No response. They'll just ignore you.

Cristina: What?

Jack: They won't even acknowledge that they're there.

Cristina: Just so it's not a ghost town or is it a ghost town? I don't know. Why is it moving around?

Jack: Which I can talk to the roads moving around. I. We did not. We were too young and too panicked after everything. After we lost Mystery Road.

Cristina: Yeah. You didn't even notice if any move. If any homes moved. You would not notice.

Jack: Crap. I can tell you for a fact Mystery Road moved.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Because we saw it on the other side of the town.

Cristina: And even though you don't see people in the town, the lights are off. Like there's no lights. There's street lights. At least.

Jack: We saw no light. I remember that so specifically. The only lights we saw the Entire were coming from the car's headlights. Everything we saw was shined through that. Not a single light. That's also another note. Nobody has ever seen lights or electricity or anything. Nothing. Always dark. Only your car lights shine it. It's almost exactly like Clinton Road. Not one light.

Cristina: I don't know then this might be like that. The castle where people just go to do rituals or whatever.

Jack: Except the houses don't look worn down. Everything is maintained.

Cristina: There's paved roads, but no one's there.

Jack: But nobody has ever seen a single person in the neighborhood.

Cristina: Is it just for show what is happening?

Jack: But that's crazy. Nobody has seen a single person ever. I found that so strange. You've seen people come out, but you've never seen one soul inside.

Cristina: That is very strange. What's happening? Is it. I don't know if it's ghost related or not. Is.

Jack: I don't know either. I just like reading about this and really doing some research on this. The. The visual of Mystery Road just vanishing is so clear to me. Straight line. We do a 180 drive right back where we came from. The road isn't there. We take a right because there's nowhere else to go. The road just kind of. We were on the. There was only woods to one side and the houses to the other side. So you turn around. Now the woods are to your right. And eventually you hit the point where you have to take a right.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And then we're wandering maybe 10 minutes. And nowhere where we came in through do we find Mystery Road. Total opposite side. I would argue it's literally across. Not even in front or to the side of it. It was literally across. If we came in through Paradise Road to the bottom, this road would have in theory been facing Clinton Road. Except we took it and came out back to paradise.

Cristina: Who made this? What is this? It's a maze in the woods. It's huge. It's a huge maze.

Jack: Less than 50,000. It's not even a huge maze. It's tiny. It's just impossible to navigate.

Cristina: Yeah. How does it do what it it's doing? What's the explanation to that?

Jack: It is very complicated. I don't know what the h*** is happening. I have no. Definitely worth. It was worth looking at this because of what the h***.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Now all of that. And it's not even the weirdest part. None of that. None of that is the weirdest part. The fringe category is not the category that comes next called the strangest. So the weirdest part of Paradise Road is None of the above mentioned, but rather the one most striking important coincidence. At the very center of the neighborhood, there's a church. In the center, at the very center of the neighborhood, there's a church.

Cristina: That church is a portal. I don't know what's happening.

Jack: Oh, and the church appears to be at the center. Regardless of how you travel it, of how you travel it or what, shift or whatever, it doesn't matter how anything else changes.

Cristina: Mayhem should go in that church. Did you see it? Do you remember church?

Jack: I do not remember seeing the church. I don't remember paying too much attention to the structures at all. Yeah, we were in a state of panic. We were just trying to scare each other and having fun until the road vanished. And then it was like, oh, f***. And then the car stopped turning on at that moment too. We panicked for a moment, tried to turn it on. The car didn't turn on. Then it finally did after a couple of moments of messing with it. And it's a car that's in perfect condition always. And that's never happened before.

Cristina: Yeah. So what's the description of the church, though?

Jack: The church, it appears to be a late 1800s design. The church has zero windows and zero entrances other than the front entrance. So you cannot see into it, you cannot see lights, you cannot see anything. There's no way to look inside. Triangular roof, boxy shape, and a front pillar with a cross. The end. Yeah, very old school. Nothing else going on.

Cristina: I don't know. This place doesn't sound real. It feels like it's a staged. A staged thing, like, I don't know, it doesn't seem like people really live there. It's just for show.

Jack: So who the h*** is coming out? Why are there people who look like they live there coming out?

Cristina: Hmm?

Jack: Who are these weirdos hanging around the entrance?

Cristina: Well, we don't know if they live there. It doesn't seem like anyone lives there. If they're. They're going there for something, I don't think it's for living there. I don't think anyone lives there.

Jack: Weird, right?

Cristina: It's for sure to hide whatever they're actually doing there. Whatever that's used for, there's something that's being used for.

Jack: Most people have never seen the church, though. Really? Some people have. Most people haven't. People who've been there. The majority of them have never seen it. I'm among the people who've never seen it.

Cristina: Yes, but everyone that has, it's been in the same exact.

Jack: Presumably the people who've been lost there for hours.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Because it's really f****** difficult to get to the center if everything is continuously changing and throwing you back out to the edges.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: If everything is always throwing you to the edges, getting to the center must be so f****** complicated. And like we saw in Google Maps, it's not even that big. A couple of houses, maybe. How the h*** can you find it so difficult to get to the middle?

Cristina: I don't know. That's strange.

Jack: The changing and shifting keeps spitting you out, always to the edge.

Cristina: It doesn't want you to get there.

Jack: They just want you to reach it. And a few people who have have no idea to know what the h***'s inside. It's just a church. An old abandoned church. Except the church, by the accounts of the people who've seen it, is the most kept. Well location in the entire neighborhood. It looks old, but it has the freshest paint job. The land around it is the most clean.

Cristina: So most likely that's the important thing. That's what people are. The people that know, the people that actually travel there. That's where they're going. Going to that church. They're dressed like it. It makes sense. I don't know.

Jack: Yeah. It's the best maintained structure. And its design is the oldest. Simultaneously and additionally. Additionally. Nobody has ever seen the road during the daytime. Mystery Road. Which means nobody has ever driven through Paradise Road. I mean, paradise neighborhood during the daytime. Nobody's ever navigated the town during the day, which means they've only ever seen the church at night.

Cristina: Yeah. Which mean it could be they. Those people could be using it at the daytime when no one's there.

Jack: Nobody can get there.

Cristina: No one can get there.

Jack: The neighborhood is just inaccessible. But then what the h*** happens to Mystery Road? It should be more visible during the day. Mystery Road should be most visible during the day. I don't know.

Cristina: That's weird. It's a lot of witchy stuff. I don't know yet.

Jack: Nobody has ever seen the road during the day. They've only ever seen the road at night, which means they've only ever seen people come out of it at night, which means they've only ever driven at night. And people have only ever been in paradise at night. Nobody has ever driven in paradise during the daytime. Nobody has any idea what that would look like.

Cristina: That's probably where things happen. Is probably during the daytime.

Jack: Weird, man.

Cristina: And like, we're. We. There's no. It's impossible to know, though. Unless we go.

Jack: We gotta go there personally. Go and we would have to go during the day.

Cristina: But then who knows? Maybe it will be missing.

Jack: There will be nothing, we'll see nothing. We'll go there and have wasted our time because there's nothing. Which means we have to go at night. That would be the only way. But honestly, that's the time I would want to go there at least. Yeah, we need a big group of people. Cameras and everything. Record every moment of it. 20 people. We're all going. Caravan of cars.

Cristina: Yes. We gotta go into that church. What's happening in that church? Yeah, people in robes. Obviously the church is being used for something, right?

Jack: Yeah, that. Total. Total connection. Total connection. People in robes. The church being the most maintained upkept place. But the houses are well kept too.

Cristina: There's no lights anywhere. There's no lights anywhere. But there's no lights on the church here.

Jack: There's no lights on the church either. There's no lights anywhere. Zero seeming electricity. Yeah, but again, some of the houses look like they were built in the 90s. Electricity definitely happened. No power lines.

Cristina: I don't know. But I don't think that's a real town. I don't think it's a family generated generations of family living there. I think it's the generations of cult leaders living there.

Jack: You think the whole neighborhood is of cults? Is of one cult. Yeah, but that would mean they live there.

Cristina: I don't. I don't know. I don't think they live there.

Jack: So what the h*** would be the point of building these houses?

Cristina: I don't know.

Jack: Especially if nobody can enter.

Cristina: I don't know. The whole thing is very strange.

Jack: It's really weird.

Cristina: It's really weird. Do they live there? Because like no one's. There's no proof that they do live there.

Jack: There's no proof that anybody has ever been there other than the people driving through.

Cristina: Yeah. We just know that we see cult members all over everywhere else around this spot. Yes, everywhere.

Jack: Everywhere. Even completely off of Paradise Road. That's where I saw it.

Cristina: Clinton Road is covered. The whole woods area is covered. The castle is covered. Like where are they not?

Jack: My bet would be they actually do live there. Whatever cult performs rituals at the castle lives in Paradise. I think paradise is the residential area for the cult, for the people who do whatever in that whole thing. And I would argue that so is the entrance to what's left of the castle. And it's probably in that church.

Cristina: Is this what Silent Hill is based on?

Jack: I don't know. But I bet the entrance to the castles to not even the castle.

Cristina: To the mines, to the mine.

Jack: The secret entrance to the mines is probably in that church. I bet that it's there. If it's not there, it's in a random indescript location. And they are the only ones who know exactly where it is. Probably a manhole cover in the middle of nowhere, covered by leaves. And you gotta like know exactly where it is to even find it.

Cristina: But it's as possible that it's in the town.

Jack: It's as possible that it's right there and that that's why it's the hardest thing to find. People can't even get to the church. Nine times out of ten just wandering lost. People don't even see a church. I never saw a church. There's a s***. We were lost for like 10 minutes. That town is not a 10 minute drive. But we never saw the center of that town. I know we tried to go through the center of the town. I guess we never really noticed that we never got to the center of the town. Now thinking in hindsight, how the h*** were we always on the edge of the town? That's weird. I never thought about that. We were always on the edge of the town and we took turns in every direction but we were always at the edge of the town. Even driving in, we would just come out to the other edge. I guess. It just obviously such a small town. You don't question it. You're just like, oh yeah, obviously I just got to the other side already. But I never saw a church. And I would have sworn to you I went through the center of the town.

Cristina: I wonder. Like there must be a secret path to get there then.

Jack: Like a combination of roads.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And that all the other roads essentially just kind of fling you around it so you don't ever mm. Get there.

Cristina: Yeah. Like if you try to not get to the center, I bet you're more likely to find the center or something.

Jack: There's probably exactly one turn you would take that would then take you to a series of other ones. And you got to take exactly one of those turns because they would spit you out. And then again you have to take specifically one other turn. So just a series of only this one, only that one. And they would take you there. Which means people have found it by total accident.

Cristina: Yes. Which is has to be the case. Yeah.

Jack: And then the structure of the houses have been intentionally built to be identical to one another to be extra confusing so that you don't know where you are at any given Moment because you're not familiar with the town.

Cristina: That's true. Like you could be looking. People think they're seeing that same house again. But it could just be that whoever made that town made it really identical. Yeah.

Jack: It's meant to confuse you as you're going through it.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So, man, did I just pass and it's the same number. Maybe not. Maybe it's literally just. I mean, it's literally the same number, but it's not the same house. It was just meant to look that way to f*** with your head.

Cristina: Yes. Okay. That makes way more sense. It's not a ghost town. It's not. It's. There's a reason. It's an actual maze.

Jack: It's an actual maze. And if that's the case, in the center is either the entrance to the mines, the real entrance to the mines. Which means the people from this town can actually sneak into anyone's house through the underground tunnels. All the other five towns are at the mercy of this one neighborhood. Or it's not that. And this is a literal maze designed as a channeling location. And that church is as we would call the entrance.

Cristina: It could be both. Like, it's so weird. It's so weird that I can imagine that it's both.

Jack: Could totally be. It could totally. Like the top floor has the, quote, entrance to coming into the church. And the. Somewhere, you know, you go down a couple of stairs, a spiral staircase or some nonsense. And you get to the entrance to the mines.

Cristina: Yes. He's like, why were they hanging out that church? It's. It's because that's. They know about that. The mines. I think they know about the mines. I don't think it was about the church at all.

Jack: It's probably the people who've controlled the mines this entire time. Which means they would have. It's not just the neighborhood. It's the entire network of tunnels underneath and not just the entire net. Who knows how much other crap exists underground. We've had 70 years to continue excavating and building homes underground and building other things on top of the fact that we know about the one that is underneath where the castle was particularly large. Entire chambers. Rooms bigger than the neighborhood itself. The entire grounds underneath the castle are bigger than the neighborhood itself. So you could fit everybody who lives in the neighborhood. Assuming this is the case, you could have 20 times the amount of people that could live in the neighborhood living underground.

Cristina: Very strange. Very strange. What is this cult doing? Whoa.

Jack: Unless they're not even living underground. There's Way more complicated crap happening down there. We do have Clinton Road being the most supernatural place on planet Earth. There's nothing more supernatural.

Cristina: Paradise is more supernatural. And it's such a secret that we wouldn't even know.

Jack: We wouldn't even know. No stories, no nothing. Can't even find it.

Cristina: Yeah. What's happening? How does Mystery Road. Mystery Road, not a road. I don't know.

Jack: Mystery Road doesn't exist. Paradise has no people.

Cristina: But they're all connected. It's all connected.

Jack: It's all one thing somehow.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: I couldn't tell you how. There's not enough information. But it's all one thing somehow.

Cristina: I wish we could learn something about this cult. There's no name on it. No guesses.

Jack: Nope. People have no idea. The closest they got was referring to them as Druids.

Cristina: Druids.

Jack: And then changing that name to satanic cults.

Cristina: Okay. And the kkk.

Jack: And the kkk. All of that. Yeah. That's which. None of the above. The closest would be the Druids.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: If anything, Druids is what we'll call them because of how weird this is. The KKK doesn't have powers, bro.

Cristina: The h*** out of here.

Jack: Unless. The original purpose of the KKK was in order to create stones. Which would make sense of the sacrifices.

Cristina: Well, now we gotta go look into the kkk, I guess. I don't know. See the history.

Jack: That's all I got. That's all I managed to find about the town. I will call it.

Cristina: It's the town.

Jack: Neighborhood Town is why I was calling it Neighborhood Town. It totally checks out.

Cristina: Right?

Jack: The neighborhood town called Paradise.

Cristina: It's a mystery itself. It's a mystery. A mystery road leads to a mysterious town.

Jack: And the mysterious town is a maze in itself that nobody has ever been seen inside. Ever. Nobody has ever seen somebody in there at least seen it and reported it?

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: If they have, they never talked about it. Which tells us way more information. You saw it and never talked about it. Where are you then? Did you see somebody and then never made it out?

Cristina: Yes. That would be the other option.

Jack: That'll be the other option. Maybe you have seen people, which we.

Cristina: Know many people disappear.

Jack: Many people disappear. Many hundreds.

Cristina: Is this part of what's going on with that?

Jack: It's 100%. It's possible that every single person that went missing along Clinton Road actually went there. It's absolutely possible that's the case. Every single person that went missing found this road and never came out.

Cristina: They saw something they weren't supposed to.

Jack: See or someone, I guess don't find it during the daytime, buddy. That seems to be the case. If you see somebody there, you're. That could be the case.

Cristina: That could be. They don't do anything outside. They don't do anything.

Jack: I saw. Dude, just ignore me. Just ignore all of us.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Didn't react, didn't respond. No, nothing. We just weren't there to him.

Cristina: And he was hunting. Which fits. If they're all just living in.

Jack: Because of the deer.

Cristina: Yeah. That just goes with the whole. They're living there. They just live there.

Jack: Self sustained.

Cristina: Yep.

Jack: Interesting. But that's all I got. That's all I got. That's all it is. Weird. Strange. Oddest place ever. Definitely fits the character of every weird other that's going on there. And definitely seems to be at least related to the center of what's happening.

Cristina: Yes. These entrances, they're all. They all have this whatever mystery thing going on. This mazes and puzzles and something patterns. All of it just very similar looking.

Jack: All three instances. The mansion, the labyrinth and the town.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: All the complicated maze that could throw you anywhere and are all impossible to navigate and all have the entrance at the center.

Cristina: Yeah. If you have a far away. They look completely different but you zoom in, it's the same thing.

Jack: And on Google Maps we can clearly see a circular formation. We can see the very little bit.

Cristina: Of roof tips of the roots or something.

Jack: Yeah. Through the trees, it's very little. And then the big one in the.

Cristina: Middle, which is probably the church.

Jack: It's probably a church. Weird.

Cristina: Weird.

Jack: Anyways, anybody who has any kind of information related to this, please either the.

Cristina: Mystery Road or Paradise Road.

Jack: Mystery Road. Paradise Road or Paradise, the neighborhood town. If you have any information on any of this, please feel free to contact us and tell us about it.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: If you live there and all of this is bullshit and the Internet is making it up. Yes, reach out. Tell us about your neighborhood. Yeah, tell us about your neighborhood. We're curious and yeah, you could do that on our socials. That's at just convopad. On Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook, on TikTok.

Cristina: Remember to subscribe, rate and review the show.

Jack: Yes. Word of mouth is a really overpowered thing and if you want. If maybe you know people who are into this and can inform us, tell that person to listen.

Cristina: Yes. And hopefully they'll hear us asking them to contact us. And they'll contact us. Who knows? Yes, contact us, please.

Jack: Yes, tell us.

Cristina: This has been the Rambling podcast. Take nothing personal and thanks for listening. Bye. S.A. good morning. Good morning. The podcast is hosted by Christina Collazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by great dots.info art by 0lupo and logo by Seth McAllister, with social media managed by Amber Black.

Rambling 198: Dangerous Imaginary Friend

Why did Jackie imagine Hank? Who is Hank? Is this something Jackie and her family should be concerned about? The duo opens the case of Hank, the Imaginary Friend, and the investigations gets only stranger as the data I reviewed. With a theory that feels right!

  • Episode Details

Topics Discussed:

  • Jackie, the 9 Year Old
  • Hank the British Imaginary Friend
  • Is Hank Real?
  • Hanks Increasingly Odd Behavior
  • Making Threats
  • Abandoned Car
  • Missing Person’s Report
  • Questionable Heart Attack
  • Mental Asylum
  • The Forest
  • Speculations

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JustConvoPod

Facebook - https://facebook.com/justconvopod

Instagram - https://instagram.com/justconvopod


+Transcript

Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.

Jack: Going live in 5, 4.

Cristina: What does live mean?

Jack: Welcome to the Rambling Podcast. I'm your host, Jack.

Cristina: And I'm your host, Christina.

Jack: And this is the show where we ground humanity's most absurdity, baffling ideas.

Cristina: Wow.

Jack: Yeah, that pause was monumental. So let's recap. Halloween's coming up, so we've been doing some weird. We've been.

Cristina: Yeah, some weird stories.

Jack: We've been digging. We've been digging deep. Deep in the. In the. In the digs.

Cristina: In the digs.

Jack: We. We've been digging deep in the digs.

Cristina: What's that supposed to mean?

Jack: We've been digging.

Cristina: We've been digging.

Jack: We've been digging holes. Yes, like the movie holes.

Cristina: Like the movie holes, except this one has the demons in it.

Jack: It built a character.

Cristina: What, this hole that we found has demons in it?

Jack: Well, we did. Yeah, we did find the hole with demons, but. Okay, so, yeah, there is a hole in some country, Russia or some s***. Like the border of Russia. I don't remember the story of Russian. Something and evil is in the hole. Allegedly. We don't really know.

Cristina: It's the Pepsi Cola.

Jack: Yeah, the Pepsi Cola wormhole. Yes, the Pepsi Cola wormhole is a scary place, but so is the Bio Ventura.

Cristina: The real life resident Evil lab.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Yeah, the Umbrella Corp.

Cristina: Umbrella Corp.

Jack: So, yeah, we. Look, the first story was just looking for some weird thing that happened in real life. The second story that we found was trying to type in exactly the same circumstances that would, in theory, describe the first story. But we just found the flip of it. Right. Originally we were like, what's a real scare? Not scary, but like, what's a real.

Cristina: Weird event that scientists can't explain? Or I guess they might have explained, but we'll never know their explanation.

Jack: Exactly. There wasn't a way to really tell.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But I'm like, okay, what's a real event that has some. Some spooky connotations to it? And then we found the. The. The lab thing, right. It's trying to replicate the whole thing. The whole thing was just. Hey, what's weird? What was it? It was. We. What's some. A scientific thing that has no explanation?

Cristina: Okay. Yes.

Jack: And I was like, okay, but that was by accident. I just. What's something scary we could look up and I found some science related. What was it? No, what's the scary science thing?

Cristina: Something scary that science can explain.

Jack: Yes. Well, I was just looking for something scary and I found Something sciency. I was just looking for something grounded, something that, you know, what's tangible. What do we have evidence for? And so we found the science experiment that was weird. And so then we looked into it or typed in the right. The same combination to try to find something else after we found that story. And instead, what we found was something unexplainable. They happened to be with scientists. Yes, but this one had, like, an alien or ghost vibe to it.

Cristina: Mm. And they weren't doing any research on the thing. I mean, their research was kind of like a normal human research of, like. What's that sound? Let me check it out.

Jack: Yeah, well, there wasn't research. It was more like investigating.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now we do this, get conclusions, blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, all right, we got to do this again because, you know, now we're by accident, consistent. And it's October. Let's do it. So October. And I got one more. One more chance before Halloween to be spooky.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: And I started digging.

Cristina: Spooky.

Jack: Well, I start digging, and I can't find anything related. It's sort of the same situation again because I type, okay, like, this time, we have a bunch of police reports and stuff. And I'm like, oh, that's. You know, that's kind of cool. That's pretty dope, because they weren't police reports for the first thing. There was just a bunch of people abandon the s***. And then the second one actually had police reports. That's kind of cool.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So I'm like, is there something else that, like, there's actual police reports for that's creepy and unexplainable? And I go digging and digging and digging, and I actually do find something quite interesting. The question is, is it spooky? So this is potentially hit and miss, but we're gonna find out.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Okay, so let's dive into the story of Jackie. Jackie is a little girl.

Cristina: How little? Or I guess how young?

Jack: Very.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: She's from Oklahoma. She's like eight or nine.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: She's from Oklahoma. And Jackie has an imaginary friend.

Cristina: That's, like, the first thing I was thinking.

Jack: I said little girl, and you just thought, imaginary friend.

Cristina: Yeah. Okay, continue.

Jack: It's just. Okay, based on me saying imaginary friend, what do you think is gonna happen?

Cristina: I don't know. Because, like, she talks to the friend, and the friend tells her to. I don't know. It's always like, some kind of, like, evil ghost thing. But we'll see.

Jack: We'll see. Okay, so Jackie's Grandmother Stephanie stated that she often spent time playing with her imaginary friend and her dolls.

Cristina: Okay. Okay.

Jack: Basic little girl s***.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Imaginary friends, dolls checks out.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So when asked to describe her imaginary friend, she claimed it was an older man named Hank.

Cristina: Always. Why is it always some creepy dude? What is with these creepy dudes hanging out with little kids? Imaginary creepy dudes. It's always a dude ghost. I never hear about a woman ghost hanging out with kids.

Jack: I don't know either. But also, pedos are, like, a thing and quite. This is what. This is the kind of s*** that makes you be like, well, it's probably real. Like, it checks out according to, like, the percentage of creeps that are out there. Yeah. So anyways, Jackie would tell her parents about, like, stories of the. The. Of Hank. Hank would tell Jackie stories, and Jackie would excitedly tell her parents stories. So she would tell. He would tell her about, like, how he used to work at a lighthouse.

Cristina: That's cool.

Jack: He used to work on a lighthouse off the coast of England. Jackie's from Oklahoma, so it's interesting that there's this random guy, and so she, you know, he tells her about his life and. Because his imaginary friend. Right. So he tells about his life, his hobbies, just things. Stuff.

Cristina: Nothing weird that he's telling her, or at least not yet.

Jack: No. Yeah, I suppose so. As a little girl playing with her dolls, I find it strange that it's not just weird that he's a grown man. That's weird. But it's weirder that he's a grown man playing with dolls that's already kind.

Cristina: Of like, okay, he's playing with her. Like, she. It's her playing with dolls with him. You're saying, like, they're playing together?

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: With the dolls?

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Okay. Okay. I didn't know that. Okay.

Jack: That's weird. It's not that she's playing with him and playing with her dolls. She's playing with him and her dolls.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Simultaneously, he's a grown imaginary friend who likes to play with dolls, and he's a dude. An older dude.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Kind of weird. Checks out the whole, you know, I'm grooming your child to do things to it, kind of. But it's imaginary, so what the h*** can anybody do? There's not a problem there. Just a crazy little girl or a normal little girl with imaginary friends.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So one day, Hank approaches Jackie screaming and crying and saying he'd seen something horrible happen. What? Imaginary stuff, you know?

Cristina: Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Jack: So he says he saw somebody fall and get hurt outside Simple.

Cristina: Well, she checks it out.

Jack: Well, she doesn't check it out. She tells her mother and her father and although they didn't believe her, so she, she, they, you know, in order to humor her, they check it out. They go check it out and what they find is an actual kid had broken his leg outside somewhere. Yeah, it was like a block away.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: She probably heard it or something. You know, typical. She was probably because she was playing outside moments before. She wasn't down the block, but maybe she saw something.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And she tells her parents or whatever. M and I think actually she was in her backyard and this happened a block away, but she probably heard it happen. And you know, as an intelligent child, quick fact. Children with high IQs tend to be the ones who have imaginary friends.

Cristina: Really.

Jack: It is their mind processing information highly, like very fast and it has to compose and composite things. And a lot of the time it superimposes imagery that allows them to process. And if the child is thinking at an extremely adult level, they might manifest an adult that can think for them in that instant psychology fact. Anyways, this child must have heard the kid fall and start crying.

Cristina: Okay, so nothing weird yet.

Jack: Nothing weird to come in from the backyard and tell her parents. And then her parents then went to investigate and found the kid. They're aware that her child is highly intelligent. They've been told things to expect of her child and also to not worry about the imaginary friend because of this very circumstance. Highly normal. It is an extremely intelligent child. Okay, so this is kind of expected. And a child with high intellect is also a child with high intuition. You can have very small pieces of information and piece together quite vivid images that are accurate.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Her predictability. Not her predictability, but her ability to predict. Astounding. Because of high intellect, imaginary friend because of high intellect and intuition. Because of high intellect, the kid is essentially psychic. Because of high intellect, she could hear something and piece it together, basically what happened here. So obviously her parents thought nothing of it.

Cristina: Okay. Yeah, I guess there's nothing suspicious there.

Jack: No, nothing at all. Why do you keep saying yet this what you keep saying yet?

Cristina: Cuz something's gonna happen.

Jack: Do you believe something's gonna happen?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Okay. Anyways, so. So the child's parents were contacted, the situation was dealt with, blah, blah, blah. And again her parents just brushed it off as something expected something normal. And sometime later, Hank began acting strange again, but in a weirder way. You know, he started think of like nurses from Silent Hill. How they kind of like twitchy and, like, real uncomfortable looking.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So, yeah, doing that and like, screeching and like, at random, he would do this. Almost like he was glitching. But this. This is her describing this to her parents. She wouldn't use the word glitching, but, you know, she would try to explain the motions and how he would just start screaming crap. And then he'd just go back to normal.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: And like, it never happened.

Cristina: Like, she tried to get an answer from him and he couldn't explain it.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, he would. Like it never happened to him. Like. Oh, I don't. I don't know what you're talking about.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Yeah. Again, imaginary friend. So whatever weird things are gonna happen. But as a result of this, she began to have a lot of night terrors, consistently night after night after night after night after telling her parents about this. So it became really consistent that she would have these. And she had to go into a child therapist. She started seeing a child therapist consistently because of this. It was becoming intrusive. She would not sleep any night. All the nights were interrupted. All the nights, all the nights. All the nights, all the time.

Cristina: Because she was dreaming about or having nightmares about Frank.

Jack: Yeah, just these weird motions. Screaming. Some of the dreams that she described just kind of looked like a horror scene is basically all black and just him there, nothing else. And him, like, twitching in that manner and screaming in that manner with nothing else but him being the focal point.

Cristina: Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Jack: Yeah. It's kind of horrible because it's unclear whether she. She placed herself in the world of the dreams that she was having. Like, she was physically there or she was just watching nothing but him. Like, is she seeing herself third person, or is she seeing first person so all she sees is him? That was unclear, but it was described as essentially a dark void with nothing but his presence. How she saw him. That made her scared.

Cristina: Yeah. Were they trying to now, like, get her to stop having an imaginary friend? Is that even possible?

Jack: Yes. They tried medication in small doses because she was a child and that wasn't really working. But they immediately stopped that because of. It was kind of numbing her out, but she would still have all the problems. So you'd like drugging your child and not even solving the problem, which is a huge issue I have with giving children medication. Anyways. Your kid has adhd. Maybe that's just your child has a lot of energy and maybe. Don't drug your child.

Cristina: Don't punish your child for energy.

Jack: Don't punish your child for Being a child.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Oh, my child can't focus. Well, they're f****** kid, you know. But yeah. So consistently her parents would chalk it off to emotional stress. The therapist explained that this stuff is expected. You know, her mind has to process even the darker things of life, and as she gets older, she's going to understand those things more. But maybe not consciously, maybe this is all happening subconsciously and manifesting as these twisted images that she's getting from Hank.

Cristina: Okay, so everything's normal so far.

Jack: It's normal. It's very on brand for a intelligent child. Minus the now. This is. According to the doctors, it's totally fine. But what's weird for Jackie particularly is that she's consistently trying to explain. He's always more aggressive than he was before. So the twitching is more vicious, the screaming is more vicious, and he's more confrontational. Consistent. Like he's more aggressive in his words, have a stronger tone and he sounds like he's talking down to her more frequently. That kind of stuff.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: But. But again, totally normal, according to the doctors, really.

Cristina: What.

Jack: What would be abnormal about an imaginary friend being weird? Unless you're thinking something horrible, which you are.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: It wouldn't be strange.

Cristina: It's gotta still be weird for the parents. Even if they're being told it's normal, it's still weird.

Jack: Why would it be weird? As opposed to, oh, our kid.

Cristina: But their kids having nightmares and it's. She's telling you her imaginary friends going wild again.

Jack: Just because you're expecting something odd to happen is that you're in the state of mind. Think about how often a little kid leaves his bed and goes and jumps in bed with their parents. And you're like, oh, how cute. But that kid had a nightmare. Some kids do that every night. That's not weird. You're just expecting something weird to happen. So you see it weird. But it's extremely. It's the most common thing.

Cristina: Nightmares, though, if she's saying that she's.

Jack: Experiencing this, well, it's an imaginary friend, which is also incredibly common. It's like a kid saying there's a monster under the bed every night. Again, you're expecting something weird, so you're seeing it as something weird. But what part of this have you never heard before? All of it is extremely common. Kids see crazy s***, though. There's monster, daddy, there's a monster under my bed. And that. That every night has to come and be like, there's not a monster under the bed. No, I saw it. Okay, I'll look under. Or it's in the closet. I'll in the closet. This is normal. This is all normal. You're expecting spooky, so you're thinking about it as weird. Why? Well, it's so weird that she. It's totally normal. There's actually nothing strange about this, about imaginary friends.

Cristina: That glitch out. That's totally normal.

Jack: You gotta understand that none of what's being described is weird in the context that a child's mind is making it up. So I'm using the word glitching out.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: I could say spasming. Regardless of which word I use, the descriptions of the child are childlike and what. The events that are happening are extremely normal, as explained by therapists who experience it all the time.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Professionals who experience this all the time are saying, this is normal. This is absolutely normal.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Which means it's so common.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That they're not like, your child's f***** up.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Do you see?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: You're expecting something weird, so you're seeing it weird because you're looking for it. But the people who are trained to spot how normal it is are like, well, this on paper is some s*** I've seen a thousand times.

Cristina: Okay. I have not seen this a thousand times, but okay.

Jack: Yeah. But you're expecting to see something weird, so you're already looking for it. You're like, which part of this is the one that I'm supposed to pay attention to? Don't worry about it.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: The doctor said it's fine. You just follow the expert.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Not the little girl. You focus in too hard on little girl's opinions. Little girl. Why are you putting trust in her? Even her parents are like, f*** this child. She's just a f****** kid.

Cristina: That's awful. I don't know.

Jack: But, like, in most cases, what you gonna do? Humor your child's crazy s***? And then they turn out to be a real nutcase because you made them think this is absolute. Absolutely. Okay. Instead of going out of it. That is where you see you'd messed up your child in this instant. Because you're like, well, this is so weird. My child. Oh, my God. But no, it's not. It's totally normal. It's absolutely normal. It's absolutely normal. Until 8-16-20. I mean, 2001.

Cristina: Okay?

Jack: In August 16, 2001, it stopped being normal.

Cristina: How so?

Jack: Well, Jackie calls Stephanie, which is her grandma, claiming Hank said he would hurt her parents.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Now it stopped being normal. Now, if she were to tell the doctor that the doctor would Be like, now we've got a problem. Up until that point, it was totally normal. You were looking for it. Now you got some s*** that is like, is this kid gonna f****** hurt her parents?

Cristina: Is she?

Jack: Well, I don't know. What do you think? So, okay, Stephanie asked to speak to Jackie's parents, and they were fine, obviously, because this f****** kid's crazy, okay? And also, it's a f****** nine year old. Like, what the h*** are you gonna do to hurt your parents if they're paying attention, you gotta catch them while they're sleeping or something if you're crazy like that.

Cristina: Is that what she does? No. Continue the story. Yes. Okay. Okay. So they talked. She talks to the parents. Parents are fine.

Jack: Yes, they're. The parents are perfectly fine. And, you know, nothing. Nothing out of the ordinary. It's just like your kids spazzing out of the nightmares of guy weariness or whatever. She just needs to escape the situation. So Stephanie has to have Jackie for the night, you know, to ease the parents worry. To ease Jackie's worries. And interestingly enough, Jackie said that anytime she was with her grandma, Hank wasn't there. Hank tends to be at home. At her. At Jackie's home, not at her grandma's house.

Cristina: Okay. Because if this was a ghost story, he's just haunting the house she's living in.

Jack: Yeah, yeah. If this is a ghost story, it's haunting the house is living in. And so Jackie goes and stays with her granny at her granny's house, you know?

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So the next morning, it gets weirder.

Cristina: I don't know what happens.

Jack: The next morning, the police knock on Stephanie's door.

Cristina: Okay, about the parents.

Jack: Right, about the parents. So, okay, this is what happens. The parents car is found parked on the highway, but the parents aren't there. And they did a search to find who the car belongs to, but the parents were also not home. But the car was there. Didn't look like anything weird happened. It kind of looked like they pulled.

Cristina: Up, they just abandoned their car, parked.

Jack: And just abandoned the car. Now the car's abandoned, but they find out that, you know, it belongs to the parents or whatever.

Cristina: How long was it abandoned for? Like, when did someone realize that it was, like, suspicious, or the next morning. Next morning. Oh, okay. And it took them that quickly to, like, look it up of, okay, the parents live there. And then the grandpa, like, did they contact a bunch of people?

Jack: Probably not the next morning. That was just a couple of hours. The girl just stayed overnight.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Which means the car was just parked on the Highway.

Cristina: And then they went to the grandma to look for the parents.

Jack: Well, not really. They probably went to the parent looking for the parents at the parents house. They probably ran the plates and they're like, somebody just parked out here.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Chances are that car had a ticket.

Cristina: On it and stolen or something.

Jack: That was probably the initial realization. But the car was just parked there. There was no broken windows or anything. And so they didn't find the parents at the place. But you know, looking for contacts and whatever, they end up finding the grandma. And they're like, okay, yeah, weird, but whatever. And the car is just there. So at this point, the grandma. Stephanie and Jackie have not heard from the parents since the previous night. So they don't actually know why they would park and abandon the car. They just know that they parked and abandoned the car. But they did in fact confirm, yes, that is the car.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Very important. Which was the goal of the police being like, does this belong to whoever?

Cristina: Yeah. And they found out. Yes.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the car gets. Because it's on the highway, and the car. They're told that the car's been towed. The car. This is important for you to like, get in contact with these people and tell them. And they. They're like, yeah, whatever.

Cristina: They like, yeah, whatever. Yeah.

Jack: Like, they're gonna go and she's gonna contact them. Eventually she gets in contact with them. She's gonna be like, hey, your car.

Cristina: How long does it take for people to feel like, okay, maybe they're missing or something?

Jack: Or that's like a day, like a week.

Cristina: But she's not worried.

Jack: I mean, the car was just found parked on the highway, so she's very worried. It doesn't. Nothing told us she's worried. But I Like, we can reasonably assume you find a parked car on the highway unless she's dead on the inside. She's probably like, well, that's strange. I should probably be worried. It'd be crazy if the cops knock on the door in the morning and they're like, hey, this car was probably here overnight, but. And also, we didn't find the people in the car. Does this car belong to somebody who you know? Yeah, it's a car of my daughter. Okay. Yeah, it was abandoned.

Cristina: Nothing suspicious about the car.

Jack: It was abandoned in the highway. And besides that, Stephanie is like, oh, that's cool. And then the cops leave, and then she never again gives it a second thought. She's just like, what is. Stupid parents my granddaughter has that they would just park on the highway and walk away don't they know that's what parkings are made for? Not the emergency lane. You know, she's over here cooking, like, stupid child of mine. I taught them how to park. Why are they stopping on the highway? No, of course she's like, what the.

Cristina: F*** do you know which one is her child?

Jack: Her child is the girl.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: The. The mother.

Cristina: Mother. So she tries to contact her.

Jack: The mother of the daughter. Cc. Yeah, she tries to contact her. That does not work out. This is 2001. Presumably one of them had a cell phone. Probably not. It was probably house phone. And see, here's the problem. This is also why it's, like, less concerning, because there's no. There's not like, any. You can't immediately get in contact with anybody.

Cristina: Yeah. So it's going to be a while for her to be like, this is really dangerous. Or not dangerous, suspicious.

Jack: Like something horrible. No, it's already. Again, there's a car parked on the emergency lane in the highway, and there's nobody in the car. And we cannot seem to find the people whose car it is at home. Have you seen them? Nah, nah, it's already suspicious.

Cristina: Do they know, like, maybe the car. There was something wrong with the car, like it couldn't drive.

Jack: They don't. Which is actually an assumption that was made. Perhaps the cut. That's why they went to the house to find out.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Perhaps there was something wrong with the car that prevented the car from moving. They didn't have the car keys, so there was no way to just turn on the car and drive it away. The car was towed.

Cristina: Interesting.

Jack: Yes. But I'm assuming after the car was towed is when it's like, okay, we gotta contact the people whose car it is to then get them to come and get the car. But, oh, we can't find them.

Cristina: We can't find them.

Jack: So we need to do everything in our power to find them. Because we need our money.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: We gonna get gangster on these mofos. They better give us our guap.

Cristina: That's all they care about.

Jack: Care about. So they show up to the house, and the pope was like, there's nobody here. They probably knock the door down, get, boom, search the house for the money or whatever. Or whatever cops do, you know?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And then they dip. Find the money, and they're like, they're hiding. They don't want to pay. We're gonna find them by any means necessary.

Cristina: So they go to the grandma for the money.

Jack: So they go to the grandma, they beat that door down. Too. And they strong armed grandma. It's like, we know you're hiding them. We know. She's like, I've not seen them. You're lying. They tortured her for weeks trying to find out. You will tell us. They waterboarded her every night.

Cristina: But, like, when they dropped her off, the grandma didn't think anything weird was going on. Like, the parents seemed perfectly fine.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, the parents didn't seem. I mean, none of these reports tell me that, but like, the fact that nothing was mentioned. Mm, probably it was just like a normal day.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: Like their behavior wasn't strange enough that she would say, oh, they were being weird beforehand.

Cristina: Yeah, there's something going on. But okay, yeah, like, clearly I thought.

Jack: Something would happen because they were being so strange. No, that never happened. They were perfectly fine. Fine. But it got weird because although they didn't get in contact with them the first couple of hours, questions start to rise after the first day and they're still not around. And then the second day and they're still not around.

Cristina: Has the grandma told anyone about what the daughter had said?

Jack: No, she. The grandma actually completely forgot that the daughter even said this. It's totally escaped her that the reason this little girl was staying at her house in the first place is because she. Because you gotta understand, this girl has been complaining about this for a long time. So anything and everything that she says relative to Hank, it just goes tuned out to some degree.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Because, you know, they've dealt with it for a while.

Cristina: Yeah. And how's the girl behaving during this time while her parents are missing?

Jack: She doesn't know that her parents are missing.

Cristina: Oh, she doesn't.

Jack: She's not told a single thing. Why would you just freak this girl out? Especially if you're just gonna fight. What if you just find her parents and they're perfectly fine? They were just out there f****** somewhere. They went to a hotel. The f***? And you're gonna be like, oh, my God, your parents are missing? No, just, you know, she's protecting a little girl. The girl doesn't know anything, but. So it was totally forgotten. But eventually, after the second day, without hearing from the parents, the police determine, you know, this is. This is. Okay, now this is problematic. This is a missing person's case at this point.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: Yeah. So they're like, okay, we definitely need to organize a search party. We know where the car was. Let's start sending people out. It's, you know, if they have been kidnapped or if they're hurt, we Gotta get to them before like it's a wrap. So they send the search party and you know, as things go, they were searching the forest around the highway that the car was found.

Cristina: There's a forest around the highway.

Jack: Well, most highways cut through a forest.

Cristina: Oh that's. That sucks. But like the search sucks because it's gonna be hard to find them if they are in there.

Jack: I mean anytime somebody is missing around the highway, there's. You gotta search the forest next to the highway. That's never not been the case.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And like I think the point of a highway is that it cuts through the forest so that you can get to the next location. So I think every highway, unless you live in California through a forest. It's through a forest. Yeah. There might be nothing more normal.

Cristina: Yes. It just sucks as just like to search through though.

Jack: But no, because if this is the case and every highway is surrounded by a forest, you've already trained in searching every forest or not every forest, but you trained in searching through a forest. It's probably easier than searching through a city where there's alleys and buildings with multiple floors that somebody could be missing in.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: You just got complicated one dimension to look. It's a plane. You just walk through the plane. And that's why it's way easier. You know, it's the whole shallow grave scenario. It's like what's in the woods. It's kind of easy to stumble upon.

Cristina: You probably have search dogs too. That makes it even more easier.

Jack: Way easier. This like there's nothing easier than searching the woods.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: Hard would be somebody went missing in the city. Well there's, I guess there's 5 million people in the city. How the f*** are you gonna find it?

Cristina: Could.

Jack: They could be walking by us and we might mess up.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: You know, the woods, ideal location for somebody to go missing. If you're gonna find them. The woods is where you want them to be.

Cristina: Alright.

Jack: And so after the two days they go and they organize a search party and start searching the woods. Now two days of search go by without finding anything.

Cristina: And the girl still doesn't know.

Jack: The girl still doesn't know. She's just staying with her grandma. But at this point the girl hasn't even talked to her parents on the phone or anything.

Cristina: So she's probably getting suspicious that something's.

Jack: Wrong or it's like a nine year old girl. Why would she get suspicious of anything?

Cristina: I don't know. Does that she have school or something to go to or she's Too young for that. You think?

Jack: This child is like, oh, my God, I should. She's like. She's remembering school.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: This is like a vacation. Yeah. This child's like, man, I need to. I need to go to school. It's important. My education comes first. What's happening?

Cristina: I miss my friends, maybe. I don't know.

Jack: This kid doesn't give a bro.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But two days into the search and they. They find Jonathan, Jackie's father.

Cristina: Okay. Oh, Jonathan. That's good.

Jack: Yes. Yes. And he's actually found dead.

Cristina: Oh, no.

Jack: Yeah, he's. He's. His body is found resting against a tree deep in the forest. It's called a parallel forest, by the way. So deep in parallel forest, he. His body's found. Parallel forest is off. I don't know the name of the highway, but it's off the highway. And this is in Oklahoma. And so his body's just found, like, sitting against a tree.

Cristina: Sitting against the tree?

Jack: Yeah, sitting against the tree. And the coroner's report says that it was just a heart attack.

Cristina: Really?

Jack: Yeah. Like, he got out of the car, traveled the woods, started to have a heart attack, leaned against a tree to kind of like, brace himself, and died there.

Cristina: What? That's pretty insane.

Jack: Yeah. That's f****** crazy, right?

Cristina: Whoa.

Jack: It's like, whoa, dude, you were having a bad day.

Cristina: And then they find the lady?

Jack: They did not immediately. So it was actually.

Cristina: How many search days is this? So far?

Jack: It's been two days of searching without. So it was two days missing?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Then two days of searching. It's been four days since they went. Since Jackie stayed with her grandma when they find her father. Okay, so four days between the day she goes to her grandma's and the day they find her father.

Cristina: Okay. Do they know how long he's been dead?

Jack: That is not established. I do not know.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: It was probably in. Somewhere in there, and I totally skimmed, so I don't know. The amount of time that comes by nex is three days before her mother is then found.

Cristina: What's her mom doing?

Jack: It's less about what her mom is doing, more about how weird it is what happened. So her mom is found in Modoc National Forest.

Cristina: Is that like super far from the forest that they're in?

Jack: Well, they're in Oklahoma and this forest is in California. What? That's weird.

Cristina: That's weird. What? What? Okay.

Jack: Yes. Also, she's found dead, and she's found sitting against a tree in the woods.

Cristina: From a heart attack.

Jack: The coroner's report claimed it Was a heart attack?

Cristina: No, she got a heart attack after walking from Oklahoma Street.

Jack: There's no way she could have walked that.

Cristina: That's not a four day walk or how long has it been at this point?

Jack: It's seven days. But that's not a seven day walk. You'd never make. You'd die long before then.

Cristina: Okay, but they think that's suspicious though, right?

Jack: She could have taken a ride there and died.

Cristina: I guess. That is so cr.

Jack: Like nobody's like, she walked there and died? No, again, only if you're expecting it to be weird will you conclude that these things are weird. Otherwise she just f****** left and had. Now again, the cops aren't connecting these dots. They're just like cops elsewhere found her. They're not like aware that again, cops in California found there. They're not like, hey man, does this woman over here have family that died elsewhere give a s***. They're just like a dead woman. So yeah, that's. But us observing it is like, whoa.

Cristina: Whoa, what does the grandma think of all this?

Jack: I know the grandma's tripping out, bro. She's like, what the. Because that's her daughter.

Cristina: Her daughter doesn't really believe her daughter ran away and then died.

Jack: Yeah, she didn't think her daughter parked the car, hitchhiked. The California died of a heart attack in the woods. Like, what party were they? Dude, that's some crazy drugs her and her husband were on. D***. I'm sure that probably crossed your mind though, like, what kind of crazy drugs were these crazy kids doing? Bath salts.

Cristina: Oh, maybe.

Jack: Man. Were bath salts even around in 2001? I don't think so. Right?

Cristina: No, it was just happening like Beth's.

Jack: Yeah, bath salts is like 2006. Maybe they had the first batch of bath salts. Yeah, they had like some super dysfunctional no kinks worked out.

Cristina: Oh my gosh.

Jack: Yeah, but that's nuts, bro.

Cristina: That is nuts. That's just like a mystery.

Jack: Yes, yes, it is. That is. That is precisely what it is.

Cristina: The cops don't do any more work. That's the end of their jobs.

Jack: I mean, what the are they supposed to. What do they think?

Cristina: The house, the car, why?

Jack: It's a heart attack. What are they supposed to do? The coroner said a heart attack. It's provably a heart attack. They're gonna be like, it was murder and someh. They caused the heart attack.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Like, no, they're just like, it was a heart attack. There's nothing beyond that point that they could do. The crazy cop that's like Dr. Housing it.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: He's like, this is a setup. I can feel it. I know the coroner's report says this, but in my gut, for whatever reason, I'm extra invested in this one random case, and I want to find out what really happened to this woman who was in the woods and died of a heart attack.

Cristina: So then what happens with the grandma? What does she do?

Jack: Panic? Her daughter died?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: It's not like she's thinking clearly anymore. Her daughter died. She's just like, my daughter died of a heart attack. She probably forgot. She's not connecting dots. Her daughter died.

Cristina: Okay. I guess, yeah.

Jack: Your daughter dies, your next thought is, man, this little girl has something to it. Or I gotta investigate the murder of my daughter, who they've told me had.

Cristina: A heart attack like, in some other faraway place, like, I don't know. You don't think she, like, was kidnapped? No.

Jack: You just gotta think, my. What the f***?

Cristina: She had a heart attack in the middle of nowhere.

Jack: Right? Right. So the logic here is she got kidnapped and then had a heart attack and they dropped her in the woods. That's the logic you're expecting your grandma to have? Maybe this little girl's not safe with that grandma. If that's where that lady's mind goes, immediately like, well, the cop said the thing, but I know more has happened, but, like, there's no evidence that more has happened. The pros told you, yeah, it was a heart attack.

Cristina: It was a heart attack, but she ended up so far away.

Jack: That's a f****** nut. But again, her daughter died. She's not over here, like, considering the distance, she's like, oh, my God, what a tragedy.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Like, maybe afterwards, after the waters f****** calm down or whatever.

Cristina: Does she then tell her granddaughter, or is she living a lie now?

Jack: No, she doesn't tell her, Grant. I'm sure eventually she tells your granddaughter.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: But immediately, it doesn't make sense. You gotta kind of strategize what to do with life. Your daughter's dead. You're stuck with your granddaughter. Your next move isn't, your mom is dead.

Cristina: Mm. No.

Jack: You got like, okay, let me damage control first.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: I gotta, like, collect my emotions and I gotta, like, I guess I've adopted my granddaughter. Do you know the least of your concerns are, let me go tell my granddaughter her mom Is that. Then control her. I still don't know what I'm doing with this girl, but now I gotta worry about her emotions and, like, her mental stability, and she was already on edge.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: You know, like you're not gonna say s***. You're gonna think about the well being of the child.

Cristina: Yeah. While you're having a meltdown inside.

Jack: That is what parents do. That is what grandparents, that's what adults are supposed to do. You suck it the f*** up. You keep your head down and you problem solve. Because it's not about you or your emotions. It's about that other person you're trying to raise into a functional adult. There's no way her immediate reaction is, oh, my God, your parents are dead, Bo. Your mom is dead. Your dad's dead. Everybody around you is dying. Oh, my God. You're gonna die too one day. Like, that's awesome.

Cristina: I'm gonna die.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: What.

Jack: What's that from? I remember that. That was like scary movie or some, right?

Cristina: Probably, I think. Sounds like a scary movie thing.

Jack: Yeah. Your mom is dead. Your dad's dead. I'm gonna die too one day. Oh, my God, you're gonna die. It's just.

Cristina: Yes. I feel like that is one of those movies.

Jack: Yeah, it is, right?

Cristina: I can't making fun of that movie with the seven Days to Die scenario. You know, the one that if you watch the tape.

Jack: No, but I don't think it was out. I know exactly who the guy is saying it is.

Cristina: A kid who watched the tape.

Jack: I don't remember that part. I know the guy. He's. Who's saying it is the guy who was the brother of Char. Or not the brother, but whoever the h*** was Charlie Sheen's co star when he was the main character in Scary Movie. It was that one. It was that scary movie with Charlie Sheen and some other dude. Yes, I remember that much. Maybe that's the one with the ring.

Cristina: Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure they own the farmhouse. That also. With the.

Jack: With the hole.

Cristina: Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Somehow leads all. All the stories are connected. I don't know.

Jack: Yeah. But the grandma is definitely not doing that to the girl. No, that's definitely not happening. That feels like the wrong move when everybody. When it's. That feels like the worst move when it's true, you know, it feels like a good troll, but it doesn't. It doesn't feel like too tasteful when it's real. It feels like bad timing to just freak out like that. But now she just sucked it up and like a good old lady, she's like, I've adopted this child. Now we need to go to her home and get clothing and crap to stay permanently. I suppose.

Cristina: Yeah. Get all the stuff.

Jack: Get Stuff? Yeah. No, I mean, not all the stuff. Just clothes and like, toothbrushes and junk like that, you know. So she goes to do all that stuff. Collects clothing and crap. But while there, the little girl says, Hank's there too. And Hank, now, she hasn't told this little girl s***. Hank tells a little girl, and the little girl tells her grandma that he said he killed her parents.

Cristina: No.

Jack: The chills that this lady must have f****** felt at that moment must be indescribable. She hasn't said anything yet. And this little girl just said Hank said he hurt my parents. Not just hurt. He killed them.

Cristina: He killed them.

Jack: He killed him. Those are words he told her. These are the words she told. She used the words killed. That is in the report. That is what said.

Cristina: What does the grandma do then? Like, what does she think? Does she believe her now? Or does she think her child's not. Child's granddaughter's insane.

Jack: Well, she's horrified by the way there's. This was on the news. This isn't just a bunch of police reports. This was reported on the news because the. The granny. Eventually. I'll let you know. So this was informed to the police about what happened, that the little girl said this.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: And Stephanie, then. This is where this, like, spins the f*** out. Stephanie explains to the police. Let me take a step back. Stephanie gets institutionalized shortly after this. And the girl gets put into a foster home.

Cristina: What?

Jack: After Stephanie went to the house to collect the things. And the little girl, Jackie tells Stephanie this. She gets institutionalized. Stephanie gets institutionalized. Because Stephanie goes to the police. And Stephanie tells the police what the little girl said, but she proceeds to give some extra details that we did not know until this point. She says that a long, long time ago, when her husband was alive, she cheated on her husband with a guy named Hank.

Cristina: Stop lying. What? Continue. Continue. Yes. That's so crazy. Okay.

Jack: And Hank happened to be a British guy. And she always believed and never told her husband that he. She always believed he was the father of Victoria, her daughter.

Cristina: Wow.

Jack: She was convinced and kept this s*** a secret.

Cristina: Gosh. Okay.

Jack: Yeah. And then in explaining this, they're like, this whole family is nuts. And they institutionalize her. They thought she was, you know, dangerous f****** situation. Because at this point, she's talking about ghosts.

Cristina: Does, like, she know? Does she say what happened to him? Does she know?

Jack: No, she has no idea.

Cristina: Okay. But she's now believes the daughter because of the ex or whatever being the same ghost. Or at least that's what she thinks is Happening. This is her story. Her side of story is that she believes her ghost ex.

Jack: Well, now she's just, like, trying to explain anything. It's just like, I knew a guy named Hank or whatever, and blah, blah, blah. And it's just, you know, she's freaking out.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now, again, she. She begged the police to listen so consistently, she was like, please, come on. This is totally happening. This is true. Hank f****** killed them or whatever the h*** the story here is. He told the little girl, little girl told me, but little girl isn't telling. The cops told the grandma, and the grandma's on the cops and sounds kind of nuts.

Cristina: And they're not gonna question the girl about it.

Jack: They are. I mean, you can question the little girl about her imaginary friend.

Cristina: If they think she knows something about the murder.

Jack: They don't.

Cristina: They.

Jack: Why would an imaginary friend tell you information about the murder?

Cristina: Isn't that what the grandma is saying that happened?

Jack: Yes, but the cops are like, well, this holds water. Both the parents died of a heart attack. Let's review that.

Cristina: Oh, yes. It's not a murder.

Jack: There is no murder. You're looking for the weird, so you're seeing it. But there's no weird so far because.

Cristina: If it was a murder, they would still talk to the girlies.

Jack: Now there's a problem. Yeah.

Cristina: Okay. But no, there's no murder. This grandma's just crazy.

Jack: This is a crazy grandma. Who said that? Her. Basically, she's spazzing the f*** out because she has crazy guilt.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: That's what they're saying. The guilt broke her. There was no murder. There's nothing suspicious. The coroner's report said it was a heart attack. So, yeah, this old lady gets put in an asylum and the little girl gets committed because of this crazy, right?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: It's a nuts story.

Cristina: So, like, the gram. Or for their. They think she just made up these stories. Do they think she made up the stories of the imaginary friend? Like, that's all.

Jack: Maybe her, maybe. I don't know. I don't know why they would ever report that. But. But maybe. I guess it could. I guess the logic would be she made up the stories because she got committed. But, like, I don't know. They. They weren't like. Also, we think, you know, like, we also believe she made up the stories that the little girl was telling us or telling her or whatever.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: She made up all of it. Well, I guess that part. They think she made up all of it.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now, after this case, right, the old lady gets committed and Jackie gets Placed in a foster home where she claims to spent her time with Hank. This. The. The. This is where this makes the news. This lady, her friend or something explains that Jackie, through her entire time staying at the foster home, always talked about this guy named Hank who she spent time with, but nobody saw her spend time with. With. Now, she never pretended to be around anybody, but she would always talk about her friend Hank.

Cristina: Okay, wait, the person telling story is a friend of hers?

Jack: Yeah. So there's a bunch of this is pieced together by a bunch of crap.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: And now we're talking about the news report that Fox had about 9 wondering why is there a report about this? So the news report that Fox had where the friend of her was talking and explaining that she was always talking about this guy Hank. But, like, we spent almost all time together. There's no way she knew a guy named Hank. And she leaves the foster home at 18, so, you know, taking contacts for too long. But on her 21st birthday, Jackie's found.

Cristina: Dead from her heart attack. No. I don't know.

Jack: In a forest.

Cristina: No.

Jack: Leaning against a tree. From a heart attack, according to Connor's report.

Cristina: Oh.

Jack: What?

Cristina: That. What. Who pieced the story together if no one believed any of it, or I guess, like, afterwards. Because this friend at least heard stories about Hank.

Jack: About Hank. Yes, she knew about Hank. She didn't know who the h*** Hank was. She just heard about the guy named Hank. And then working backwards, they come across the information necessary to then claim all these things. So there's enough police reports, there's coroner reports, there's the documents that put the grandma in the asylum, and the grandma is still alive to ask questions to. So. Yeah.

Cristina: So did the grandma have more information?

Jack: Knew Grandma knew what she knew, and that was it.

Cristina: Oh, I don't understand. Like, this is supposed to be some weird ghost story, or is this a real person that's stalking a family?

Jack: I don't know. It's crazy, right?

Cristina: Yeah, because, like, I don't get it. Like, how are they dying from heart attacks?

Jack: That's the craziest part. The immediate thing I thought about when I was checking this out was like, somebody has a death note. Somebody. Like, how is everybody going off of a heart attack, bro?

Cristina: Yes. Walking into a forest. And. Yeah.

Jack: It's like somebody wrote the instructions ahead of time, and then it's like, just put the name a heart attack. How weird. It could have been anything else. They could have just all walked off a bridge.

Cristina: I don't understand. Like, why would. If this was like A ghost story. Why he would have this much hate to do all that? Like, did her husband murder him? Or something like that would make sense, I guess, as revenge. I don't know. Like, we don't know anything.

Jack: Yeah. The problem with the. When stories like this are real is that somebody's withholding information because they don't want to look bad. So maybe if this was a re. If this is a ghost story, if this is a ghost doing this, somebody had to do something to him, right?

Cristina: Yeah. Like, besides lying about. There's no way that that's the whole truth.

Jack: Yeah. That some, like, this old lady knows. Like, my husband died because he was killed by the guy because he went out to kill him in the first place or whatever.

Cristina: Yeah. Or he just killed the guy and then that's it. That's all she knows. Like, oh, my lover just disappeared one day after I got pregnant.

Jack: Well, interesting enough, she did say that she cheated on her husband with the guy, but never told the husband that she thought that was the father of the daughter. But did her husband not know or did he know?

Cristina: What if he did know and then killed the guy? Yeah. And this was his revenge.

Jack: Yeah. 100 it could be. But also, why would he kill his own daughter? Unless that wasn't actually his daughter? She only thought it was.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Again, she wasn't sure. She was convinced, but it.

Cristina: She was convinced. And maybe her husband was also convinced.

Jack: Yes. But maybe he just wasn't. And it's like, you killed me for nothing.

Cristina: Yeah. Whoa. That could totally be it. Who knows? But, like, yeah, if that was his daughter, why do this? Why? Murder. It's just too much murder to be like.

Jack: It's no murder.

Cristina: No. Well, whatever.

Jack: To this moment, there has not been a single murder.

Cristina: Suspicious heart attacks.

Jack: Yes. Ex absorbently suspicious heart attacks.

Cristina: Yes. I don't know. Like, if we don't count him in, then what is happening? How did they. Why and what the.

Jack: Do the woods have to do with anything?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Or the forest. Whatever.

Cristina: Forest. Yeah.

Jack: Also, weirder question. Why is the mom all the way in California?

Cristina: Yes. How? Why?

Jack: Well, how? She probably hitchhiked there. But, like, what?

Cristina: Maybe Frank was from there. Who knows? I don't know none of that. Hank. Hank. Is it Frank? Yeah, whatever.

Jack: No, he was from England.

Cristina: Yeah, but he lived somewhere in America afterwards. Like, she met him in England.

Jack: Unclear. She dated a British guy and he worked at a lighthouse off the coast of England.

Cristina: Yes, but was she dating him there? I don't think so.

Jack: I mean, how would she date a guy Working at the lighthouse. Yeah, but I guess he worked at the lighthouse. It doesn't necessarily mean. No, it was off the coast. So he wasn't, like, on. On a f****** island, I guess.

Cristina: I'm guessing he vacationed in America or something. Yeah.

Jack: Like, how'd she meet him? You know, unless she vacationed. But no, this. Okay, so if we're trying to make this make sense, he had to come over here.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Not the other way around. So she just had, like, a fling. Probably in California.

Cristina: Exactly, because maybe she was on vacation.

Jack: Maybe they were both on vacation, man. In California. Some s*** went down. Then she confessed to her husband. Her husband went over there immediately and off. The guy. Maybe. She was in vacation with her husband, obviously. And then, you know, wild night where he was just at home. She was, you know, I'm gonna go hang out at the bar. You don't want to come out, whatever. And, you know, things happen. Goes home with Hank or not even goes home. Maybe Hank rents a car. Something happens with Hank, and then she feels. Oh, well, the pregnancy I have isn't my husband. Oh, my God. Yeah, but it was totally. Was your husband. And then your husband finds out because you confess or something. Oh, honey, I'm so sorry.

Cristina: I thought she kept it a secret. I mean, she did keep a secret from her daughter, I'm assuming, because she just let it out after everything happened, but I don't know. Yeah, I think she probably confessed.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah. To her husband.

Cristina: Yeah, Exclusively.

Jack: And so. So then the order of events were going by. Is lady lives in Oklahoma. She then has a vacation in California.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: By the Murdoch National Forest, actually. When her husband, for whatever reason, isn't with her and she happens to meet a guy named Hank, they have a fling in the forest. Yeah, that's where they f******.

Cristina: Oh, the plot thickens. Yes.

Jack: They f*** in the forest.

Cristina: And he probably was killed in the forest or his body was hidden in the forest after he was killed.

Jack: One of Holy. That's exactly what happened. They didn't f*** in the forest. They probably in the car parked by the forest.

Cristina: Oh, my gosh.

Jack: She explains to her husband what happened. Her husband goes and kills the guy, takes him to the forest. It just so happens to be the nearby forest. So both events take place there.

Cristina: Yes. And she has no clue what he's doing.

Jack: She has no clue that he did this. She just knows she confessed.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: The end. That's her. The extent of her knowledge. Her husband did the rest, and he has no reason to. He's horrified that he did this. He's not gonna be like, I killed a guy and threw him in the forest.

Cristina: Yeah. That's a secret he dies with.

Jack: Yeah. They go back home. She's pregnant. She does not tell her husband that she believes that's the other guy's baby. But she does believe that the other guy's baby. Which is probably not the case. It's probably just her husband's child. She's just guilty. She feels guilty.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And all these other thoughts are associated with the guilt. Simple. Simple. One plus one equals two. Most cases. But sometimes it could equal one as well. But we're not gonna dive into this. Into the semantics of how math is kind of difficult to understand. So he kills a guy. She doesn't tell him. She thinks it's his baby. Totally not his baby. But this lady grows up, marries a guy named Jonathan, and then they have a daughter named Jackie. And then Jackie has an imaginary, unquote friend.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: For whatever reason, this guy is messing with this girl. I guess this spirit is just waiting. And then one day, the moment arrives and the whole scenario happens. So car by the woods where she probably f***** in the first place. The guy. Because it's just possibility. And then the bodies in the woods where her late husband had buried. Not literally in the first instance, but that's why the mom, the actual biological one.

Cristina: Mm. Is buried over there.

Jack: Not buried.

Cristina: Found over there.

Jack: Yes. Interesting enough, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy's body is beneath that tree. But they would have had no reason to look.

Cristina: No.

Jack: Also, that happened so f****** long ago. There's no sign on the dirt.

Cristina: Yeah. There's no way that they could piece that together.

Jack: Yeah. So it's just a dead lady.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: But the guy who isn't her father is buried directly beneath her.

Cristina: Possibly.

Jack: What?

Cristina: That's crazy.

Jack: The idea here is that all of this happened, everybody in this lady's family died because of her f****** cheating on her husband in her first place.

Cristina: The ghost got his revenge by not killing her.

Jack: By not killing her. Letting her stay alive to watch all this. To know her family's dead.

Cristina: Yeah, like he really had it out for her.

Jack: Maybe she could. The problem is, maybe she could have stopped her husband. Maybe just not telling him would have been the right move.

Cristina: Yeah. Or maybe she has suspicious also that he did something to Hank and just never said anything. Like she's living with that guilt.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: It's way more than just.

Jack: Yeah, she could definitely have an inkling and, like you didn't avenge his death.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And it's Your fault he's dead. Yeah, like you didn't redeem yourself.

Cristina: But what if it has nothing to do with her story or whatever? Like, what if this girl did have an imaginary friend that was a ghost? Maybe in the house? Is that possible? I don't know. Like. But he has the name of the other guy.

Jack: Yes, yes, yes. The name is where this immediately becomes a ghost story.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: If the name didn't line up, then it wouldn't be a ghost. And who he killed. Why wasn't it. Why didn't he just hurt the little girl?

Cristina: Why did he take all these steps? Like. But it feels like it also, it wasn't in his control either. Because you say he like, changed over time. He was friendly at first, and then he just grew more and more hateful.

Jack: And that's interesting, right? What's that about? That's also where it gets kind of creepy. The rest of it is. It's more of a mystery. Everything is mystery until you get to the silent hill aspect of the little girl. That one patch is like, what happened because he was just playing with her, which would then make you think, no, that is your daughter. That's your granddaughter. That's your granddaughter.

Cristina: Unless he didn't have all his memory and he was gaining it. And that's what's all the glitchiness. Not glitchy, but, you know, the odd.

Jack: Behavior that's somehow somewhere, some such is so horrifying. I don't know why that disturbed me. The fact that he's a ghost with no memories. And then suddenly the memories start coming. It's f****** twitching and.

Cristina: Yeah. And then the hate starts growing. But that's real hate that he had before he died. But he just didn't have it at the moment when he met the girl. I guess. Like it just formed.

Jack: Interesting. Interesting.

Cristina: Like that makes sense because he was playing with her. He was normal. He was like, whatever.

Jack: Yes. And then slowly, gradually, more corrupted, broken, more twisted.

Cristina: Yeah. Like that's very strange. Could it be because it. What does that even mean? A ghost gaining memories?

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: How's that a thing like that means.

Jack: He was a goat. An incomplete ghost to some degree.

Cristina: Yes. I don't know. That's like.

Jack: And why focus on the little girl unless you're actually related? Related?

Cristina: You think? Maybe. I don't know.

Jack: If it wasn't, then he would have just focused on the old lady. But he didn't. In fact, the old lady was completely left out of it. That part right there makes me think that's actually the Victoria Is actually his daughter.

Cristina: Okay. Because he was around her. Well, sort of.

Jack: Daughter. He's around the daughter. Somebody in the family. As opposed to being around Stephanie, the grandmother.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: That makes me think. Yes. And I guess it would hold. The story would still hold. So Stephanie and her husband go on vacation. For whatever reason, one night, she's not with her husband. She meets a British man named Hank, who happens to also be in a vacation. They're from Oklahoma, but they're vacationing in California by the Modoc woods. She has a flame in the car parked on the side of the highway with Hank. She does get pregnant by Hank. She confesses to her husband what happened.

Cristina: Yes. And he goes. Fine.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Hank. He goes find Hank. Kills him in the woods.

Jack: Well, kills him and.

Cristina: And then buries him in the woods.

Jack: Probably.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Could have killed him in the woods, could have killed him somewhere else. Regardless, he kills him.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And he puts him in the woods.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Then they leave. But she is, in fact, pregnant. She doesn't tell her husband that she's pregnant with his. The other guy's baby. He thinks this is his child.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: But it's not. Fast forward. Hank's spirit follows the bloodline manifests to the little girl. His granddaughter.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Because victorious. His actual daughter.

Cristina: It has to be. Maybe. But I wonder if she had an imaginary friend and the grandma just doesn't remember. But then again, she would have known. Like, this would have.

Jack: Like this would have happened already. Yeah, it would have already happened. There would have been. No, no, Jackie, no. Because Victoria is where it would have ended.

Cristina: Why was a heart attack?

Jack: Why would a heart attack. That's another thing that doesn't make sense. Because why wouldn't they just show up dead and then have no trace as a. Why, like, you know, like, only clearly murdered, stabbed to death, or, like, beat to death or whatever. But there's no trace of who did it. That would make sense. That's like. Okay, whatever happened to you, you did to them.

Cristina: Yeah. Unless he somehow died from a heart attack. Can you cause someone to have a heart attack?

Jack: I don't know. Maybe he hit him in the chest a couple of times, punch him in the chest repeatedly, and kill the guy by accident. Maybe. Maybe he went to beat the guy up, not kill him, and he beat the guy into having a heart attack. Maybe by hitting him in the chest, the guy dies. Then he goes ahead and buries the body in the panic. That's why this was never reported.

Cristina: Yeah, well, no matter how he did it.

Jack: But so the good. So Hank dies of A heart attack. And then he makes sure that the bloodline dies of a heart attack.

Cristina: Yes. Why kill the husband, though?

Jack: Yes. Because he's not related.

Cristina: It's not related. Yeah, but.

Jack: But keeping this in mind, maybe he sees Victoria and Jonathan as individuals that are mirroring what Stephanie did. Maybe they're not doing the same event. But he doesn't have a husband to take revenge out on. He has a daughter and his daughter has a husband to take revenge out on. Yeah, there's a husband somewhere.

Cristina: And I wonder how much the daughter reminds him of the mother of Stephanie.

Jack: Interesting. And then he's just. Yeah, it could totally be. It could totally be.

Cristina: It's just a weird build out. Like I don't feel. It doesn't feel like he planned it out from the beginning. Unless he. Maybe he did. I don't know. But then it's just weird. But we don't know the whole story.

Jack: We don't know the whole story because why would she tell us?

Cristina: Yeah, but I mean, like the little girl story too, of how he was friendly and then he just over times becomes a different person? Pretty much.

Jack: Well, here's what's interesting. The girl in the foster home isn't being tortured by Hank. Hank is just fine. It's just stories of being with Frank and spending time with him.

Cristina: That's also weird because she knows he killed her parents at this point.

Jack: Interesting. I wonder if this girl has some suppression problems going on, huh? Because it is traumatic. It's particularly traumatic. Your parents disappear, you got this crazy f***** tells you he killed them. Your grandma gets put away. You're young.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: You just create a blockade.

Cristina: I guess that would be the only way because, like, how are you living with all this nonsense going on? This is nonsense.

Jack: Like, interesting.

Cristina: What? Like she had. Did she believe him? Does she not believe him? You wouldn't know. I mean, her friends weren't worried about it. They were like, ah, she has an imaginary friend. Whatever.

Jack: She's an immature individual. At the end.

Cristina: She wasn't seeing a therapist. Still during that time, I maybe, like.

Jack: She'S already been seeing a therapist, so it wouldn't be like, crazy.

Cristina: Oh, and there's no story from them.

Jack: Why this? It would be illegal.

Cristina: Oh, there.

Jack: There's probably a crap ton of notes that nobody's ever gonna see because that would be illegal.

Cristina: This is. It's just a weird story, man. She did it. No. How did she do it?

Jack: Anyways, that's the story of Jackie and Stephanie.

Cristina: How she killed her parents.

Jack: No, I don't Know how her parents died.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So interesting, though.

Cristina: Yeah. A weird case of random heart attacks.

Jack: Random heart attacks and a crazy old lady with crazy stories.

Cristina: Yeah. Yeah, that's what it sums some.

Jack: Three heart attacks and a crazy old lady with crazy stories. Anyways. Anyways. Anyways. So we're totally way over the time here, but good. Bad, bad. Middle ground.

Cristina: Middle ground.

Jack: I think definitely not as horrifying as whatever the h*** happened last week at the Biovent is like, bro, that's horrifying. But this is just. This is just a weird.

Cristina: It's very weird.

Jack: It's very strange.

Cristina: It's.

Jack: It's probably just like.

Cristina: It's a bit icky. I don't know. Yeah, yeah.

Jack: And there's. Again, there's no murder anywhere.

Cristina: There's no murder, but it's very suspicious. Everything is like. It's not right.

Jack: It's not suspicious. It's very. Yeah, it's just not right. Right. There's just something like. This is weird.

Cristina: Three heart attacks. No way. In the forest. No way.

Jack: Yeah. And all of them in the same.

Cristina: Exact way in different forests. None of them in the same forest. Nope. That's very weird.

Jack: That is weird. Anyways, Anyways. Anyways, if you guys enjoy spooky stuff, we got two other episodes right before this one that are strange circumstances that.

Cristina: Have happened in life, and we have other episodes. Episodes. Older episodes.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: About weird, strange, real events.

Jack: Yes. There's a bunch. And not just real, there's a bunch of just like mythical crap that's weird, too. And like a bunch of horrifying creatures everywhere. There's a plethora. We. We kind of circle horror often, although we don't word it in horror kind of ways. There's a lot of creepy we talk about when you think about it.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And you can find all that on the podcast platforms. Any of them. And if there's one we're not on, like, I don't know, send us a message. And you could actually send us that message on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram @justcomfopod, as well as find a bunch of clips and crap there.

Cristina: Awesome. And remember to subscribe, rate, and review the show.

Jack: Word of mouth, incredibly important. So, you know, if you. I guess that's not even word of mouth, but. How do I put it? If you rate the show, though, it's the equivalent of word of mouth, I guess, because we move up, you're telling.

Cristina: People, hey, but if you review it, aren't you doing the same thing?

Jack: Yeah, if you rate it, you bring us up and you're like, hey, worth looking at. And if you review it, you're literally letting people know. Letting people know with words. Although not words of mouth. It's words of keyboards.

Cristina: Yes. Words of keyboard. Yes. Okay. I let someone who might like this show know about it.

Jack: Thus insert the word of mouth.

Cristina: Yes. This has been the Rambling podcast. Take nothing personal. Thanks for listening. Bye. And these penguin guards, what are they? They're just. They're just guards.

Jack: They're guards. There's some sort of chimera of some sort or some man made creature. Maybe there's. Maybe there's birds and penguins over the. I don't f****** know, man. I don't pay attention. Yeah, we're. Our job is inside the.

Cristina: Inside the wall. Yeah. That's why we don't really travel outside the wall.

Jack: Yeah. There's no reason to.

Cristina: Yeah. Everything is in here. Yeah.

Jack: Yeah. So that's definitely, you know, that's what's happening there. And the reason that it's connected to Martin Luther King is actually that Martin Luther King, he had to communicate with the people from the other side of the wall to get help to establish laws that would help inside the wall.

Cristina: He had to do that.

Jack: He didn't directly. Basically, Martin Luther King would have secret meetings with President. What the h*** was his name? Lynn? Lyndon.

Cristina: Lyndon.

Jack: Lyndon Johnson. Yeah, President Lyndon Johnson. Martin Luther King would have special meetings with President Lyndon Johnson. This is fact secret meeting. Some of them were recorded unknowing. And these meetings took place because, you know, as, you know, world leaders communicate with higher ups and the chain goes all the way to the top of the Illuminati, top of Freemasons, top of government, all these things that usually manage from outside the wall. And so he needed to talk to the president to get messages from the president to the overseers and overlords on the other side of the wall to then get resources sent back so that we can, you know, they would have advice, they would send people to help and black neighborhoods need help or whatever. And so people would show up that like, where are those people from? But, you know, so much help, we're not gonna question it. And it's because people from over the wall are showing up to help.

Cristina: Good morning. Good morning. This podcast is hosted by Christina Collazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by greatthoughts.info art by 0lupo and logo by Seth McAllister with social media managed by Amber Black.

JCP 6.02 Did Not Need To Know & The State of Society

Guest Jenna, host of the Did Not Need to Know podcast, joins Jack to discuss everything from interpersonal personality types and motivations behind creative ventures to the profoundly complex state of society. In a deep dive that psychoanalyzes some of the world's most dangerous serial killers to the most clever hypnotists. An episode with a little something for everyone.

+Episode Details

Topics Discussed:

  • Trying to understand serial killers/ true crime
  • Don’t fuck with cats
  • Ed Kepne
  • Psychopath vs Passionion Fueled
  • Charles Manson - Both Guilty and Not
  • Daron Brown - mind control, hypnosis, brainwash
  • Cult leaders
  • David Letterman and Jimmy Kimmel are dicks
  • Most serial killers and crimes unsolved
  • People should be more alert
  • Tip to know if someone’s following you
  • Disconnect with Fantasy
  • Kink shame
  • Tribalism vs Individuality
  • Social Media - the downfall of society,
  • Pro-racism
  • Beliefs vs Actions
  • Reverse racism/silence of the white privileged
  • Never about equality, always about revenge
  • Can people change?
  • President Biden
  • Hilter
  • Politicians are psychopathic
  • Obama and Trump

l Did Not Need To Know Links:

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/5VPmrWyoWBg7Aa10GcspMe?si=6377034ea7864eb7

Apple - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/did-not-need-to-know/id1595369766

TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@didnotneedtoknow

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/didnotneedtoknow/

Twitter - https://twitter.com/DNNTKpodcast

Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/DNNTKpodcast

l

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JustConvoPod

Facebook - https://facebook.com/justconvopod

Instagram -https://instagram.com/justconvopod

Rambling 125: Banshees and Women in White

Zero Lupo, La Llorona, Banshee, Creature, Folklore, Death, Reaper, Story, Fantasy, Shadow Realm, Monster Hunter, Podcast, Just Conversation, The Just Conversation Podcast, JustConvoPod, COmedy, Discussion, Radio, Ghost, Paranormal

What are Banshees? What are their origins? Are they related to the Woman in the White Dress? Answers to this and more on this episode!

Story:
The duo unpacks Banshee’s, Women in White and any similar or relate ghost or creature in order to get better informed as they continue to fill their Mars prison with different paranormal beings to study. All in the name of science.

+Episode Details

Topics Discussed

  • Banshees
  • Death Omen
  • The Weeper
  • Woman in the White Dress
  • La Llorona
  • Lilith
  • Shadow Realm
  • Shapeshifters
  • Fear
  • Reapers

Art by IG @Zero_Lupo

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JustConvoPod

Facebook - https://facebook.com/justconvopod

Instagram - https://instagram.com/justconvopod


+Transcript

Cristina: This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.

Jack: Going live in 5, 4.

Cristina: What does live mean? Welcome to Just Conversation, the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas in childish ways. I'm your host, Christina.

Jack: And I'm Jack.

Cristina: And if you haven't yet, remember to hit that subscribe button to get notified the second new episodes are released.

Jack: And also, this show is most enjoyable with a listening partner to share opinions and ideas on the topics that we discuss. So be sure to find a single individual, somewhere random, that they wouldn't expect to be found by a different complete stranger, and approach them with this very tone. I'm speaking.

Cristina: You sound like an anime villain or something.

Jack: That's fine.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: You approach them and you. Hey, Yugi, I have a show for you to listen to. And if you don't, I will fling you to the shadow realm.

Cristina: To the shadow. We're revisiting the shadow realm? Sort of. Not really, but one of the creatures we talked about.

Jack: We are?

Cristina: Yes. The Banshee.

Jack: The banshee? Yes.

Cristina: Remember last time? Well, not last time. Dragon Ball Z, but a few episodes ago, we talked about Ireland creatures. Yes, yes. And we learned about fairies. And I'm still unsure about this fairy ghost thing, if it's a fairy or a ghost or if it's us or not. Like, I know you explained it, but it still makes no sense in my head because it's so many different ideas, but it's all the same. But it's all different, so it's hard to understand for me. But the Banshee, she's a fairy lady, but she's also a ghost.

Jack: Right. Are they different variants of this?

Cristina: Of the banshee?

Jack: Yeah. Is it like, some stories say she's one, some stories say she's the other. Or is it like, collectively, it's unclear.

Cristina: I think she is definitely a fairy lady. Ghost. A ghost fairy lady. Got you for sure. She's usually. I didn't talk about this last time. I didn't realize she was. How short she is. Because, you know, if you remember, the other fairies are the short people.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Well, she could be between 1 to.

Jack: 4Ft tall, so not human.

Cristina: Yeah, so that goes. They say it goes along with her being an old lady, but also to show that she's a fairy lady. So although in different stories we talked about she could be a young lady. Little girl. Did we say little girl or just a young lady to old lady age range?

Jack: No, I think we saw this before she was an old lady. So there's more range here.

Cristina: There's more range?

Jack: Yes. Before we establish she was an old lady. And there's more range because she's not just an old lady.

Cristina: She's a fairy lady. No, she's a short lady.

Jack: So short said she could be a young lady.

Cristina: Last time. I'm pretty sure I said she could be a young lady.

Jack: Oh, really?

Cristina: I don't remember. There was like, three age ranges. The young, the middle age, and the very old. You remember that?

Jack: No.

Cristina: Okay, well, that was last time. This time I'm just talking about her being old because I didn't realize how short she was. But that doesn't matter. What matters, though, is that she's usually the ghost of a murdered lady or a ghost of a mother who died at childbirth. Those are important.

Jack: Yes. Okay.

Cristina: And if you remember, she sings or mourns over the death of family members. Because it's like every family in Ireland has a banshee.

Jack: Why?

Cristina: Well, not every, but the ones that come that have their blood from Ireland, of the first people that took over, remember there was a people that fought the fairies, and that's when the fairies disappeared.

Jack: So they're all descendants of St. Patrick?

Cristina: No, of the Malaysians. I think they were called those people. And if you have their blood, then you have a banshee.

Jack: Hold the f*** up. The Irish are just Malaysians.

Cristina: That's how I think it's pronounced. I'm not sure if that's the correct way it's pronounced.

Jack: What is Malaysian people from Malaysia?

Cristina: No. Then it's probably not the same Malaysia that you're thinking about. Is this other word that looks very similar to that.

Jack: Okay.

Cristina: I don't think they're connected. Well, sometimes they could be a predictor of death. They could be crying before someone dies. I don't know how they can tell, because usually you find out the person died afterwards anyways. And even if the person died far away, they'll get the news of the death from her crying. And that would be kind of their warning that something bad happened to their family member. Also, there's some moments where a bunch of banshees are crying. I didn't know that.

Jack: During tragedies, maybe.

Cristina: Well, for them, it means that if a person. For someone who's. For someone who's great or holy, they'll cry. A bunch of them will cry for that person.

Jack: What does that mean?

Cristina: Like, I guess the great. Like king or holy, like a saint? I don't know.

Jack: Okay.

Cristina: And then a bunch of them will cry. I don't know why they care, but they care a lot. And in Welsh folklore, there's also a ghost that cries before a person dies.

Jack: And in similar Dubanche, just in that.

Cristina: Way that it's crying. It's a voice that's crying, but it's.

Jack: Not, like, super short thing.

Cristina: A short thing like a.

Jack: Like a fairy.

Cristina: Oh, I don't know. I don't know if they consider. When it comes to things outside of Ireland, I don't know if they consider it as a ferry. I think they're just ghosts.

Jack: Yeah. I don't mean, like, it's called a fairy.

Cristina: Oh.

Jack: I'm saying, like, is it, like, is the description the same being?

Cristina: The only thing I got from the description of this ghost is that it has a voice that they hear. I don't think they see this ghost.

Jack: Got you, got you, got you.

Cristina: And then in Scottish folklore, there's, like, three different creatures that are like this. Can I call them creatures or ghosts? Three different ghost stories that are similar. One is called the Little washer Woman. And when they see her, she's usually washing clothes of people who are about to die. So if she's washing her clothes, I guess, you know, I'm about to die.

Jack: How do they know it's her? What does she look like?

Cristina: I think she's actually kind of described as the same as the banshee as the old lady. Like, she's an old lady washing clothes.

Jack: Got it, got it.

Cristina: And then in a second one from Scottish folklore, she's called a weeper.

Jack: I have heard that before.

Cristina: The weeper.

Jack: Yeah, I've heard that before.

Cristina: Okay. Well, do you. What do you know about her?

Jack: I don't know anything about the name.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Well, she also cries predicting death from her cries. She likes to cry at night by waterfalls, stream or lakes, and in glens or mountainsides. She's very found in very specific locations in Ireland. I mean, Scottish Scotland.

Jack: And she also looks like a fairy.

Cristina: We'll say old lady. Got you, old lady, because fairy. I don't know. I don't know. I guess, like the fairy banshee. Yes.

Jack: Sure looks like a banshee. We'll leave it there.

Cristina: She cries over the death of people who are killed in battle. Those are the specific weepers. Yeah, the weeper. It's just people who died in battle. She'll cry for them. And her cries cause people anxiety for their children that are in war because, you know, like, they're like, is it my child that's gonna be dead? Or whatever. Pz, you don't know. Who's she crying for? And there was an event, though, the Massacre of glencoe. And the McDonald's weeper was heard crying all night. People who heard her crying left the place before the massacre.

Jack: So those people lived and then everybody else died.

Cristina: Yeah, everyone else died.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: Yep. Yep. And she sounds a lot like the banshee, though, in that they're like. Well, I don't know if the banshee really predicts death, but we can't really tell from when she cries to when they find the death of people.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: So, like, it seems like she stops crying when you find the body. So it could be that she's predicting as well.

Jack: Does she sound like she's luring you to the body? Is the cry always heard from the direction of the dead?

Cristina: I don't think so. I don't think so. I just think, like, once you do get the news, then the crying stops.

Jack: I wonder if there's a movie about banshees.

Cristina: Probably. I bet Supernatural has all these creatures.

Jack: Yeah, definitely. They've come across a banshee before.

Cristina: Yeah. And then there's the third version of the Scottish folklore thing because they have so many. Many, I guess, of this similar banshee ghost thing. And it's. This one's kind of creepy. It's when you're sick and you're about to die, she's gonna be outside your door crying.

Jack: But you don't know it's her.

Cristina: No, I guess not. But still, if you hear a lady crying, you're probably like, oh, I guess. I guess this is it. If you're sick and dying in bed.

Jack: That means you're probably in a hospital, in which case you just hear some random person you don't know crying.

Cristina: That's so freaky.

Jack: It just probably means somebody already died in the hospital.

Cristina: That's true.

Jack: And that's exactly where you're at.

Cristina: Because maybe before hospitals were a thing and you were just dying at home. That would be creepy then.

Jack: Unless it's so bad you know you're gonna die.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Then everybody around you knows it could just be somebody, you know crying.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: It's only if you're in your house and you hear somebody who isn't familiar crying.

Cristina: Yeah, I guess that would be very creepy, though. Yeah. There's. In Latin America folklore, her name is La Giorona, and that means the Weeping Woman or the weeper.

Jack: Yes, the same thing.

Cristina: Okay. It's the same thing. The Weeping Woman.

Jack: And I'm assuming all the rule sets.

Cristina: Work the same this One's a little.

Jack: More complicated because La Giorona sounds like the woman in the white dress. That is usually what they call her.

Cristina: Yes. There is some connection with this one, I guess.

Jack: Yes, yes, I'm very familiar with La Giorona in Latin American culture. That one is identical to the lady in the white dress. You take her home and she goes in and she left. Some bullshit. And you try to take it and then they're like. She was always been dead.

Cristina: Yes. She's always wearing white, I guess, is what she has in common with the woman in white.

Jack: So you're telling me the woman in white and the weeper fused to create La Giorona?

Cristina: Well, she's a little more complicated though, than the woman in white, because in her story, you know why she's weeping?

Jack: Somebody died.

Cristina: Her children's dead.

Jack: Got you.

Cristina: That's what makes her different. She's usually. She drowned her children. Is it part of her story? And I know one of her stories which. A woman who was beautiful, marries a rich man, and they had two children. And one day she finds her husband cheating on her. So she kills her children for some reason out of anger, revenge, and she regrets it immediately. And out of the guilt, she drowns herself. But she can't enter the afterlife without her children. So she haunts. She haunts, I don't know, around. She haunts places, children, I guess. I think she tries to kidnap children. Maybe, I'm not sure. But yes, the reoccurring themes though, of her story, because there's a bunch of different versions of it. And that's just one of the stories of her is the white dress, the crying and the water, because she drowns her kids in the water. So I guess.

Jack: Right. Sometimes she's wet, sometimes she looks like she just got. She was drenched.

Cristina: Yes. There are white women stories, though, that the woman is also wet, but not relating to drowning her children, usually because.

Jack: She'S out in the rain.

Cristina: Well, the one that I read, one of them was that she. I think she was in a car accident.

Jack: It was raining.

Cristina: She was in a car accident and she actually. She drowned in a lake or something.

Jack: Oh, I know one that she was in a car accident while it was raining. And there was one where she forgot her purse and in. What was it? She left her purse in a cab, got out or she lost it or some s*** like that. Oh, and then she couldn't get in because her phone or some s*** was in there. Or maybe phones didn't exist. Whatever. She couldn't get in Contact with anybody, and she wandered into the woods or whatever, and she went missing. It's because she died in the woods.

Cristina: Yeah, there's quite a few in the woods.

Jack: Yeah, it was raining. And that's why she's wet.

Cristina: That's why she's wet. The. Oh, there was one in Canada, one of their famous white women. She felt she.

Jack: Women in white.

Cristina: Women in white, they call them both ways for some reason. Either or. But the woman in white is better, I guess. And she was gonna marry someone. I think he went to war. So she. She jumped off a fall that they have over there. They have many falls. Well, she jumped off one of them in her wedding dress. Of course, that was the white dress. Not all of them died in a white dress. In a wedding dress, but they're all usually white still. The dress that they are wearing. Some of them white dresses, Some of them wedding dresses. You've heard of the wedding dress ones?

Jack: I thought they were all either a wedding dress or some variant of it.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Because I'm assuming the lady that kills her children even though she's wearing a white dress, isn't wearing her wedding dress. I don't know. That's kind of crazy. But I mean, maybe she is. Like, who knows?

Jack: Maybe she put the wedding dress on and then killed her skids.

Cristina: Yes. Whoa. I guess that. Then that's really revenge to her husband.

Jack: No, that's madness.

Cristina: That's madness. Okay, well, in Mexico, they tell these stories to the children to encourage them not to wander off after dark. So she's like a boogeyman type of situation. In America, part of their story is that they could hear her screaming or crying while she's walking around near water or in the dark. So to scare the kids from going out there. Yeah, where they don't want the kids to be. In Venezuela, the story is a little different in that she has to raise her children alone because the father died in war. And she just. I guess she got tired of that and decided, I'm gonna kill my kids. And then her spirit now kidnaps and kills other people's kids.

Jack: Okay, so it's basically the same story.

Cristina: Yeah. Except in this story, families put wooden crosses above their doors to ward her.

Jack: Off because they think she's some sort of a demon.

Cristina: Yes. Which is like the Lilith story, which I want to talk about. Lilith. Do you know her?

Jack: Lilith is a biblical creature.

Cristina: Yes. She's from the. Well, she's not really from the Bible. Like, she's not in the Bible, but in an early Jewish interpretation, Of the Bible she appears, I guess. And the first Eve, they call her because she was made like Adam in the beginning, you know, instead of Adam. And then Eve threw Adam's. What is it? His. Something.

Jack: Yes, his rib. While Adam was created. And then Eve was created from Adam to be less than Adam and his servant. To Adam, Lilith was the equivalent. And I believe she predates Adam. She wasn't made at the same time as Adam, if I'm not mistaken. I believe she was made first. As if Lilith was the first person.

Cristina: Really? Well, I'm not sure about when she was made to Adam, but they were both made from the same ground or whatever.

Jack: And Lilith is not a good person.

Cristina: Yes, she. They had problems, her and Adam, because they had sex problems. Lilith didn't want to lay down. She was not happy with that because they're equals. She doesn't want to be the bottom. And he was like, no, you have to be the bottom.

Jack: So she wants to f*** in that way where the guy is on his back with his legs pushed up and then she sits on his d*** as if she were the one f****** him, but his d*** is inside her. Interesting.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: She was in some weird positions.

Cristina: Yes. Maybe she wanted them standing up together.

Jack: Or maybe she was a lesbian.

Cristina: Maybe she was a lesbian.

Jack: She was the first lesbian. She's considered the first sinner.

Cristina: She's definitely not a lesbian. I think only because she does, like have sex with people. She's. Before she was in this story, she was a. What's it called? A succubus. She's pretty much a succubus.

Jack: Before she was in the Bible, she was a succubus.

Cristina: Yeah. Like they turned that story into this story because everything's based on other things. The Bible's not the first story.

Jack: So the origin from her in a different culture was a succubus.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: There was a succubus called Lilith that then got incorporated into Christianity and became Lilith, the first woman.

Cristina: Yes. Do you know about that?

Jack: I did not know that. I knew that Lilith was the first woman and I believe she was the first human.

Cristina: You mean like her then Adam? Right?

Jack: I believe it was her then Adam. Except we wouldn't call her human.

Cristina: No.

Jack: Because human was Adam and everything that came from Adam.

Cristina: Oh, really?

Jack: Yes. The idea would be that if you make two different. Even if they look identical.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Adam is one and Lilith is another. So you'd have an entire name of things that came from Lilith.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And are like Lilith, made from her literal matter.

Cristina: Well, good.

Jack: And then entire Tree coming from Adam.

Cristina: She does have children.

Jack: They are not human.

Cristina: No, they're not human.

Jack: Yeah, they're not human because human is Adam and anything that came from him. If Adam mated with Lilith, then those would be human because it would be anything that came from Adam. Yeah, but because they did not mate, it did not come from Lilith. And thus no version of Lilith's offspring are human.

Cristina: Although it's weird, because she does steal his seed and have babies from him. But they aren't humans.

Jack: That's weird, because they should be. Anything that comes from Adam is human.

Cristina: Well, I guess because it's mixing with whatever she is. If she's a whole different thing.

Jack: No, no, no. If she mated with Adam, it would still be. It would be half and half. You'd still calling them human because Adam.

Cristina: Okay, they're called Lilium, and they're earthbound demons.

Jack: Earthbound demons.

Cristina: Yes. She ran away, of course, to gain her independence, like an independent lady. Whatever. And then Adam tells on God. He's. He's like a tattletale. And then God sends three angels to her to get her back. The angels find her in a cave giving birth to their children, and they. And she refuses to go to the garden, so they kill a hundred of her children. I wonder how she reproduces. I wonder what the number was. Unless it was 100 kids and they killed. That or there was, like, she had a thousand and they killed 100 of her thousand kids. But they say, we're gonna come here every day and kill a hundred of your kids every single day until you come back to the garden.

Jack: That's crazy.

Cristina: Yes. So in her revenge, she kills children. Regular kids, I guess, because we're all part of Adam now. So she's killing us.

Jack: Fair enough. She's just taking revenge on Adam's entire bloodline.

Cristina: Yeah. So the death of stillborns and crib deaths are blamed on her.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: Yep. Lilith is pretty cool. I don't know. There's like, a debate on, like, is she good? Is she bad?

Jack: No. Lilith is bad no matter what.

Cristina: I know. There's just women who look at her.

Jack: Well, she's not bad bad the way Lucifer is bad.

Cristina: What way is that?

Jack: That he didn't really do anything bad.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: She had an opinion.

Cristina: Yeah, well, raping people is not good. When she got there, I guess that was bad.

Jack: Well, she was initially not bad.

Cristina: Yeah, she was initially not bad until the angels killed her children, which then.

Jack: Makes it questionable whether she's bad or scarred.

Cristina: Or scarred. Yeah. And then there's In Ancient Greek, a lady named Lamia, she was having affair with Zeus. So his wife Hera killed. Well, didn't kill her. Killed her children. That's one of the stories. She killed her children and then Lamia kills other women's children. And then in the second story, Zeus's wife forced Lamia to eat her own children. And then Zeus gave her shape shifting abilities, which I think is interesting, that she's a shape shifting monster that eats children, which she should have been in our other episode about shapeshifters that we did about eating, but that was about blood drinking, shapeshifting.

Jack: Yeah, it was about blood suckers.

Cristina: Yeah. But she's a shapeshifter who eats children and might have eaten her own children because of Seuss wife. And today she's used as a boogeyman to frighten children. Similar to Il Cuckoo. And then the most popular version, this is a white lady. She's everywhere.

Jack: Yeah. There's no country that doesn't have this story.

Cristina: Even the people we mentioned before this point were probably white ladies. They were probably all dressed in white.

Jack: Yeah. That's what's kind of fascinating about the white lady, that out of all these arguments that one might be the possible one because there's so much s***. But then the thing is, people have stories of oh no, she's this and no, she's that. No, there's a f****** creature that happens to look like a lady in a white dress or something.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Because it's everywhere. It's similar to the problem of a chupacabra. You've seen it too many places to say. It's just here now there is the regional story equivalent where. Well, we believe in these things. So it has to take this form when we tell the story. Yeah, but there's one thing they're all talking about that's similar enough difference between Sasquatch and Bigfoot and Yeti is there's the same s***. It's regional. But there's a thing you're talking about.

Cristina: Yeah. Like even the white lady would look different in like her facial features or something. If you had a draw her, she.

Jack: Might in the Middle east she probably has reddish skin. If you're in Asia, she has yellowish skin. If you're in Europe, she probably has really milky skin. If you're in Africa, she probably has dark brown skin. But you're talking about the same f****** thing.

Cristina: Yes, she does the same exact thing.

Jack: All the same things.

Cristina: Yes, all the same.

Jack: So it's basically we could just say that the lady in white is A Banshee?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: They're the same thing.

Cristina: Yeah. The only interesting. Really interesting thing about the Banshee is that it's family related. So I wonder if the white lady. There's stuff like that. Like you hear her or you see her, if you're somehow related to her family and you just don't know how you're related. Because we have no idea how related we are to a stranger we meet.

Jack: Man. Here's the. Here's the interesting division between the lady in white and the Banshee. The problem is that the Banshee is you're totally. It doesn't have to be family related, but it's warning you of a death of somebody close.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And she's crying at your location.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: The woman in white doesn't do that. You encounter her in the middle of f****** nowhere.

Cristina: She might be crying in some stories, I'm sure there's a story. She's crying.

Jack: Who's lady in white?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: No, I'm not saying that she doesn't cry.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: I think she's always crying.

Cristina: Oh.

Jack: I'm saying she's not at your house.

Cristina: There's no warning.

Jack: Yeah. She's not at your home crying. She's always wandering the f******, like, side of the woods or some s*** when you see her.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: On the road or some crap. Hitchhiking.

Cristina: Yeah. She's always. It's about her life because she's always based on a real person who died in a real tragedy.

Jack: But that's when we tell the story. Like if we break it down to what this really might be and we compare it to the banshee.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: We have two different things.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: They're similar.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: But they're not the same. Now, everything else we've discussed, I think would fall into one of these two categories.

Cristina: The white lady or the Banshee.

Jack: The white lady or the banshee. I think those are the only two real creatures we've heard about so far. And then the story equivalents. So we've heard of either the Chupacabra or the Yeti and everything else. Like, let's say the f****** creature in the middle of this place. And it's a shapeshifter. Okay. You mean the Chupacabra.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Or, well, this. Bigfoot. No, you mean the Yeti.

Cristina: So then Lilith fits more with a white lady.

Jack: Lilith fits more with the white lady. Yes. Or Lilith might be her own thing, though she might be unrelated.

Cristina: Okay. She is a ghost and she's killing kids.

Jack: It sounds like she's Intentional.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: But then based on the story, she would be the White Lady. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cristina: He's a white lady. It's not the ones that we're about to talk about, but the ones from Mexico. Or not Mexico, but the South American one that we were talking about. She. It sounds like she wants to kill kids too, because she killed her own kids and she wants to take a ghost with her so she can go to the afterlife kind of situation then.

Jack: Man. It's interesting because it defers quite heavily with the lady in White from North America. She's not a. The lady in white isn't a woman with children at all. As far as we know. She usually dies in her teenage years. Maybe like 17 or 18.

Cristina: She's always young.

Jack: Yeah. And you take her to the house. She was just looking for a ride. She didn't do anything weird to you or anything. Just took her home and she forgot something in the car. And then you take it back to find out that's impossible. She's been dead.

Cristina: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I do remember a connection to her and the Banshee, though. The original version of the Woman in White.

Jack: Right.

Cristina: There's a popular medieval legend about the Woman in White where she appears in the house of a family member who is soon to die. She's seen as the ghost of the deceased ancestor of that person. That sounds exactly like the man.

Jack: She and the lady in White.

Cristina: And yes.

Jack: She's feeling both. Rose. She's feeling both somebody who's already dead showing up and sort of an omen of death at the same time.

Cristina: Yeah. Like now she's not that version, but this. The older version of the original. The origin. Is that better? Origin.

Jack: Now, this is what's crazy. We have the lady in wine too many places. Obviously, she's not one person. Meaning. But it's also problematic to say that there's a bunch of this exact same circumstance happening. Coincidence would be too exaggerated at this point. There'd be thousands of the same scenario.

Cristina: But there are. It feels like there are.

Jack: Well, let's be reasonable about that. Obviously, the story is being told the same. But whatever they're telling the story about.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Is one thing.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So, like, just being reasonable about it. There's a creature, not a person.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Who seems like a person. Could identifiably be a person. But we could also say the same thing about a succubus or a vampire. They look like people.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But they're not mermaid like. It looks like a person, but it's not, you know, Siren.

Cristina: Yes, it.

Jack: It's not, but it looks like it.

Cristina: Okay, so these fairy ghosts are not ghosts, but more fairy, like for their own creature.

Jack: Well, depends on whether they're. Well, I guess we, we at this point we'd be leaving the fairy definition of Ireland fairies and be talking about maybe not necessarily fairies, because western fairies in our region of Western is more like. I guess. No, those aren't even f******. I guess it would be Asian fairies that we here in the United States envision are little people with wings.

Cristina: Oh.

Jack: So it's wrong to say fairy because whether we're talking Irish or North American, we're kind of off about what the f*** we're talking about. But it is some sort of entity.

Cristina: Yes. That's why I feel like the Irish one is the closest, because it is an entity.

Jack: But it's not a fairy tale.

Cristina: It's not a fairy.

Jack: It's not a fairy. Doesn't fit the description of fairy. Which are little people.

Cristina: Well, they don't. They're not always little people. Just a lot of the time. They're little people a lot of the time. But that doesn't mean they're always like that just fits the story. So they mentioned that one the most, maybe to make them all seem the same.

Jack: Got you.

Cristina: But that could have been, you know, like the story could have been different before. Like maybe fairy people did. Were our size before.

Jack: Yes, yes.

Cristina: They only shrunk in Ireland. They could be spread out. Spread out and just as tall as.

Jack: You know, their normal woman in white and the banshee might be the two variants with Lilith as an exception. That is she is a creature of her own. Or the woman in white. She's the only out of the women in white equivalents. She stands out the most. But she still fits the suit in some categories. While the banshee seems to be a whole other s***. Just warning. And then we have this weird cross pollination of that one event of warning.

Cristina: And also being dead. Yeah. So I don't know more than one creature. One creature.

Jack: I think two creatures, bare minimum. I think three creatures max.

Cristina: Three creatures max.

Jack: I think we're talking about two to three different creatures. And everything else is a regional variant.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: People just telling the story a different way.

Cristina: Mm. Probably. Yes. Yes, I think so.

Jack: Interesting. And they look like people is one of the characteristics.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: They usually embody somebody who's dead. They aren't somebody who's dead.

Cristina: No.

Jack: They appear to appear to be the person who said, if you're a Woman in white.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So whatever that creature is always shows up in white. Even if that person was probably not even wearing white. Maybe there's something about their transformation into that person that only allows that to be the color.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So they always look to be wearing white. Thus the woman in white, even if she died in a blue dress, when.

Cristina: You see her, it might be the same dress, but not white.

Jack: Exactly. Maybe they can't imitate these colors. Yeah, maybe we are talking about some sort of shapeshifter that can only embody somebody dead.

Cristina: Oh, you think a shapeshifter? But then that's more fairy, like, because they're very shape shifter too, like.

Jack: Yeah. So they could definitely embody somebody who's only dead. And that's why the story is always the same. Oh, no, it's not possible. And somehow they get the memories of the person too, because they often ask to go to the same place that the person used to live.

Cristina: Yes, Yes. A lot of them are the same place.

Jack: They're hunting the children of people similar.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Those that are doing that are feeding. So we can say the same creature two different instances. In one case, they still have the memories of the person somehow.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: That being said, all of that being said, maybe the lady in white. Holy crap. Isn't even on the side. We forget to keep talking about this, but maybe they're from the shadow freaking realm.

Cristina: That's where the fairies are from. That's where the banshees from. That's why I keep saying she's a banshee.

Jack: Maybe we're seeing. Maybe she's not taking the form of anything. Maybe we're just seeing her shadow form. Her.

Cristina: You know?

Jack: Yeah, her. This side form from the shadow realm.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Interesting. And it might appear as this person or that person. Or maybe using that energy from when.

Cristina: We see her feed, though it matches up with Lilith in that it's children.

Jack: Yes. So there are creatures over there feeding on children from over here?

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: That's a strange one. So far, I don't think there's any banshee eating children, though. But when it comes to women in.

Jack: White, maybe Lilith is the first. Similar to, like, Dracula.

Cristina: I mean. Yeah. Like she has children. They're demons. But maybe they're not really demons the way we think of demons.

Jack: Maybe she spawned whatever creature the women in white are.

Cristina: Yes. Yes. Oh, you know, that's so crazy. There's a place, though, that there's like 300 stories of the women in white, which, like, they're called. They're actually Called the Maidens of the name of the location of the place. Because there's so many.

Jack: Fascinating. So there might be a breeding ground.

Cristina: That's so crazy now.

Jack: It's not a breeding ground on this.

Cristina: Side, but it seems like it because they do. There are stories of the real ladies that died. Well that match up.

Jack: You know, the creatures aren't breeding on this side. The creatures manifest where there's energy to manifest through, as we've established. And if all these people have died in this area, there is more than enough sorrow and fear.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: To go around. And so they can heavily manifest. So haunted areas are just places with enough energy for these creatures to manifest most vividly.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And the more haunted you are.

Cristina: That's why there's so many women in white in a lot of places. But in this specific, in eastern Russia is where they're at, where there's like a ridiculous amount. It says like 350 of them.

Jack: So then the question would be in that area that they're in, was there some sort of tragedy? Is it considered particularly scary place or a haunted place place or something along those lines that could allow there. We know emotions allow shadow beings to manifest.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Specifically fear.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Is the most powerful of them all.

Cristina: That place is scary.

Jack: Are people scared of that place?

Cristina: I don't know if people are.

Jack: Because it could be self perpetuating. It could be. There was one story, people got a little freaked out about that story. But the fear surrounding every time people went through there allowed two or three to manifest. But then the experience is multiplied because their experience, more people had the same story to tell, which then created more fears. People would go through there, which then in return allowed more fear to linger and more to form. And little by little, anyone have to.

Cristina: Die for these things to be born.

Jack: Maybe just the first lady. Somebody saw something, maybe the right person. Here's what usually happens. Right. Somebody who doesn't know the person goes through, sees the lady in white. There was enough energy, enough here. Whatever case might be, pick the lady in white up. Either their children die or they take the lady to her home, quote home, unquote. And her father tells you the same bullshit. Sorry, she's been there. A little weird event that happened.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But maybe this is the one time that the father was the one driving down the street and he sees his f****** daughter and he freaks out and she gets in the car, he's like, what the f***? Or somebody who does know her.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: A family member or something like that. Bob. Her cousin, who didn't know and came the visitor or some s*** drives her to the house. Now the fear is so immense because I saw her.

Cristina: Everyone that knows her is seeing her.

Jack: We saw her. We saw her. She was there. We saw her. This place is haunted. That must have been a demon or something. Now the fear is real. Real.

Cristina: That's why certain locations are haunted. Because everyone's seeing her there. But only like it just took one person seeing her there for a bunch of people to see her there. And then she became a real thing there.

Jack: People have seen the lady in white in different places and they're unrelated. So it's not as scary. It had to be. In order for this place to be of mass ground, some series of events had to lead to the amount of fear that there is relative. Because otherwise every place would have that same amount.

Cristina: So then something else must have happened.

Jack: I'm telling you how it happened. It was somebody who might have known her.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Opposite to a stranger. A stranger picked her up. They were only scared after they were told the story. Somebody who knows or sees her. Holy s***. I was at the funeral.

Cristina: Yes. Okay.

Jack: Now you're like, I'm never going down the street again.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And you had to go down there one day for whatever reason, but you didn't see her, but you went through there so panicked the person behind you saw her.

Cristina: Have we ever talked about the haunted road like this though? Like maybe that's why it's so freaking.

Jack: Haunted instead of being a space anomaly.

Cristina: Yeah. What if it's not a space anomaly but some weird energy thing is happening? Like this place?

Jack: Definitely could be. It could. Well we've established that maybe it's not the streets, that the street itself that's haunted, but the forest, the woods themselves are haunted. We just didn't know what we meant by haunted. And what we meant by haunted is creatures from the shadow realm.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Cut through because of fear.

Cristina: So there's no such thing as haunted in Linton Road? Yeah, there's a hoarder of creatures in there, but not real creatures, shadow creatures.

Jack: They're real creatures. They're just from the shadow realm.

Cristina: Yes. And in this place in Russia, man, that's so crazy. 350. This is a lot of ghosts. Yeah.

Jack: So I think that's how it happened. It self perpetuated. Somebody saw it, freaked out. It was real fear. Like way more fear than just getting told the story. You saw the person you know is dead. You tell they're like, no f****** way, you're losing your mind. But now they're kind of freaked out. Like maybe he's telling the truth. Rolling down the same street. You see her too? Oh, s***.

Cristina: Yeah. It's interesting because none of these stories, it's random lady. Like, you have a real person who's died or supposedly this person really died.

Jack: I think whatever. Creed. I think they're all. I think we could call them all. D*** it. The problem is we don't have a name for it. The question is, is it different from a banshee? And I think it is. I think the lady in white is different from the banshee.

Cristina: But we can agree they're both shadow people.

Jack: I think they're both shadow creatures. Yeah.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: I think they're both shadow creatures, and I think the banshee is the harmless one.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: The banshee is probably the more scary one because it's screaming. Cries, yes. Like, you'll be way more horrified to encounter a banshee, but you're way more in danger with the lady in white. The question is, what creature is the lady in white? Because we know the banshee is some sort of warning creature.

Cristina: Yeah. While the lady in white is just sometimes. Sometimes wants to eat some children. There's some, though, ghost stories I just remembered about. She wants to share gold with people. I don't know why. She has like a gold, like, treasures.

Jack: Oh, no, that's a trap.

Cristina: That's. No. Well, it depends because sometimes she's like, you could have half, and if you're greedy, then death on you. But if you listen to her, she'll. She'll really give it to you. I don't know if there's one stories that there are traps, but the ones that I read, she's honest until you're greedy and then you're dead.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: But I don't know how that relates. But that's just an interesting thing I remembered about some of the white lady stories or the lady in white stories. There's another ghost that's similar to the lady in white, but she's not the lady in white. She's a ghost in Nigerian and African schools. She haunts the schools and like, the places the kids are sleeping. Like the boarding schools. That's what they're called. Whatever. And her name is Madame Koikoi. Well, she haunts the schools and she wears red heels. And she is popular in Nigeria, Ghana and South Africa. In Nigeria, there are two origin stories for her. In the first story of Lady Kokoi, she was a beautiful teacher. She liked to be her students. And she was fired for slapping a Student. And one day when she was going home, a car hit her and she died. And then she swore revenge on the school and the students for some reason. And then after she died, I guess while she was dying. And then she haunts the school.

Jack: How is she related to anything? Why did we learn about this one?

Cristina: Because she's a ghost lady. I guess that's how she relates.

Jack: There's a lady? Million other ghost ladies. How do you pick this one?

Cristina: I don't remember. Cuz she's really famous. Like the white lady in white. She's famous everywhere.

Jack: Right.

Cristina: This lady's famous everywhere around Africa.

Jack: Yeah, but the lady in white and the Banshee are heavily related in that they're both women, both crying, both surrounding the concept of death.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: This is just some random lady who died.

Cristina: Yes. Who kills her children. Which is like those ghost stories where they. She kills children.

Jack: Like the white lady in white.

Cristina: Yeah, the lady in white kills children. Except this lady's killing school children because of her death.

Jack: In a specific school?

Cristina: In specific schools. Yes.

Jack: No, in a specific school. Or does she like swear revenge on the board of education?

Cristina: No, no, no. I guess depending on the school you're at, she's haunting your school because that's how spread out her story is. So.

Jack: So her story is too specific. In the case of the lady in white, there is variance.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Here is the same story.

Cristina: Yes. With different origin stories, though just like little changes to them, but which makes.

Jack: This one sound way less likely.

Cristina: Okay. Even though they're all almost the same. Although one of them, the students, killed her by accident. They were tired of her beating them up, so they beat her up themselves. And one of them killed her with her own shoe. And then she started killing them off one by one like a horror movie.

Jack: So Final Destination.

Cristina: Yeah. So that was pretty interesting. And then there's these other things which I think relate more to the Banshee. And that's why I looked this up. But it doesn't. I don't think we'll find any relations with the women. And why? Because there's these things called psychopomp. I think that's how you pronounce it. And it means the guide of spirits. They're the creatures, spirits, angels or deities. And many different cultures and religions that guide the deceased from earth to the afterlife. Because we don't know if the Banshee is doing that.

Jack: Maybe you mean reapers.

Cristina: Yeah, I guess reapers is a version of it. Because there's many different versions of these things that just. They come when you're dead and they take you to the next place. And who says the banshee's not doing that? Like, maybe they're just crying until you die and then they walk away with you.

Jack: We don't know you aren't dying when a banshee shows up. Banshee's crying because somebody died and they're letting you know.

Cristina: No, but they're crying until that person is dead though. Like why? What if they stopped crying because they're now taking the soul to the next place?

Jack: That'd be weird. Because if somebody's dying far away, they're with you while that person far away is dying. So they're warning you about a person they're not around.

Cristina: Well, they're taking it as a warning. They're not. Like it might not really be a warning to you. They just happen to live where you're living. Like they maybe didn't want to leave Ireland because they love Ireland. It's their home.

Jack: No, no, no, no, no. I feel like you totally missed everything I just said. The ban. She warns you about somebody dying or about to die. See, regardless of where the person who's dying or about to die might be.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: She's around the people that would care. Oh, okay, so she's not around the dying person.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: She. How she delivering the soul if she's nowhere near the dying person?

Cristina: No, I guess not.

Jack: So she would be just like a warning system.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And then the reaper is a deliverer.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: This other creature.

Cristina: Yeah, but the reaper, I guess I'm sure there's another creature that's she.

Jack: I think there's a system of creatures that function in non harmful ways, as well as a sisters and ecosystem.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: As well as the system of creatures that function in exclusively harmful ways. Like a wet church.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Which is vicious and dangerous for no f****** reason. So I'm thinking, yeah, I'm thinking that the banshee in this case is harmless, as is the reaper.

Cristina: Yeah. He's just there to collect the soul.

Jack: Yeah. I think those are delivery beings to some degree.

Cristina: One example of the guide of souls that I like. They, they depict them as animals besides of spirits and creatures and stuff like that. They also see them as animals that are warning, I mean, that are there for the dead. In different cultures. It could be horses, deers, dogs, ravens, crows, vultures. There's a bunch of different animals. But the one that I think is the most famous of the animals are birds. Like if you see a huge amount of birds waiting outside a home of the dying, you're like they're here for that person. Well, I think that's the most famous cyberpunk.

Jack: It's well known for the crows.

Cristina: The crow. Okay. Yeah.

Jack: So crows are considered an omen of death, as well as black cats.

Cristina: Yeah. So those are the animals that are gonna, I guess, take the soul with them.

Jack: Interesting that you would say that, because in both the case of crows and the case of cats, they're usually not being noisy or anything. They're just waiting.

Cristina: They're just waiting.

Jack: They're just waiting. Specifically cats. Black cats. A black cat sitting on you while you are in a hospital is a bad sign.

Cristina: Okay, that's interesting.

Jack: Yeah. Like it's about to wait for your soul.

Cristina: Actually, I've heard of dogs, too. Of dogs in the hospitals would do the same. Like they would go to the person who's about to die.

Jack: Yeah. Before they die. Like they know ahead of time you can smell the death.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Well, maybe they're not smelling it. Maybe that's not any normal dog.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Or if these deliverers can take over.

Cristina: Creatures, that's possible too.

Jack: Maybe it is a normal dog. Until the liver takes over its body and patiently waits.

Cristina: Mm. What do you think of that? That's pretty interesting.

Jack: So it's a possession that's not violent?

Cristina: No, it's very peaceful in a way. Like the death. Or hopefully the death is as peaceful. Yeah.

Jack: Interesting. Interesting. The shadow realm has quite a couple of weird things in there. We got to keep these investigations going. I must see if I can catch. Like I said, with more information that we get, maybe catching a banshee becomes possible.

Cristina: Oh, snap.

Jack: Using science, using any means, we might come across any information based on what we learned. Right. I'll know more where to find a banshee as well as, apparently, I gotta find a woman in white to see if that is a creature of its own. The banshee doesn't seem harmful. The woman in white seems dangerous.

Cristina: What if she's the bad version of the banshee, like we had? Did we decide to scrap that idea?

Jack: No, I. I know what you're talking about, and I was thinking about it earlier, which was that maybe the woman in white is a type of banshee that has become feral. A feral banshee.

Cristina: That's what you were calling them. Feral. Right.

Jack: But the only difference is that we don't know that a banshee has lost anybody or that the banshee has even died. The banshee might not never have been human.

Cristina: No, I don't think so.

Jack: Then Again, the lady in white might just be inhabiting humans or looking like humans that were once alive.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So they might not necessarily have ever been humans either. It's still. They sound so different either way.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Like we can see how a wet judge and a wendingo are the same.

Cristina: But they don't look the same either.

Jack: They behave so similarly.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: While these two. Like, they behave so similarly and similar to werewolf, almost.

Cristina: Yeah, There's.

Jack: There's real tight connections there.

Cristina: Well, in.

Jack: While here, there's the big discrepancy in behavior. Like, big. The only commonality is the crying. And not all the women in white cry.

Cristina: No. But a lot of them, I think, do.

Jack: Yeah. So there are some. And the person might have actually died. That's. I guess that's another similarity. They think the person who died became the banshee.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: They think it could just be that this creature is taking the shape of somebody dead.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: To then warn them of death.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So I guess there are some similarities to look at.

Cristina: So you might find a connection that we're not even thinking about right now.

Jack: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. There's a line I'm not even thinking about.

Cristina: Yep. Interesting. The psychotrop. In ancient Egypt, they had a God named Anebus. Do you remember him?

Jack: Right, he's the sort of Egyptian God of death or some s***.

Cristina: Yes. He's the. He's a guide of souls.

Jack: Oh, yeah. He's a spirit guide. He's actually not the guide. He's not the death bringer. No, he's the soul deliverer. He's the soul deliverer who delivers it to. Who's gonna weigh it.

Cristina: Yes. Yes, that's exactly. So he's a. Whatever these are called again.

Jack: Reapers.

Cristina: Yep. Reapers. I guess reapers are easier word than calling them psychotomps.

Jack: Maybe it's the same thing. Maybe we're literally talking about the same thing.

Cristina: Yeah. In the Greek mythology, there's the ferryman. Sharon. I don't know his name, but I know the Greek. You know, the ferryman from Hades, that you have to go on his boat to go to the.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: River. Across the river.

Jack: The river Styx.

Cristina: Yeah. Yeah. So when you die, a family member puts a coin on you so that when your spirit goes there, you could pay. And if you don't pay, you got to stay there a hundred years and wait again to cross. So. And then in Norse mythology, the Valkyries are choosing their favorite warriors to go to Valhalla to be part of Odin's army, because he's preparing for Ragnarok So he's building this army. So they're taking the best warriors for that. And then in modern day, the Jewish reaper is the archangel Samuel, whose row is both as the angel of death and the accuser. I don't know if you heard of that archangel.

Jack: No.

Cristina: And then in many cultures, there's the shaman who both plays the. That person that takes the soul to the dead, but also helps bring people to. Helps in giving birth to people. Like, I guess he would be there when you're. You're giving birth to your child.

Jack: The shaman.

Cristina: The shaman.

Jack: Interesting that I've never heard that name for it. But a very old version of reapers that I've heard are the same, and they're represented with the numbers 1 and 9. And the goal is that they bring their soul delivery in every direction.

Cristina: Yes. Well, the shamans are like that. Yes, exactly like that.

Jack: So the reaper I was thinking about this whole time was a shaman.

Cristina: Yep. Wow. And then in the Philippine culture, they think that the ancestor spirits are the ones that are the reapers. When a person who's dying calls out to call someone's name that's, I guess, dead. Like if you called your mother's name while you were dying, then it's because your mom is there to take you to the next life.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: And that's their thing. And that's pretty interesting because a lot of people probably say someone who's dead already name or whatever. But in. And In Christianity, there's St. Peter, Michael the Archangel and Jesus are thought of as the reaper. Yep, yep, yep.

Jack: Anyways, we're out of time, and that is definitely fascinating. I didn't know how closely related to banshees the women in white were, but there's definitely some lines crossing there. So as we go and find ourselves one of these s****, we got a experiment. Experiment. We got to find out. Because if we find two different things, that's crazy, but maybe they are related the way a wendingo wetcha and a werewolf are.

Cristina: Yes. Like, it's. It's gotta be. It's there. Like we can, like, glimpse at it. We can't really see it as well as those creatures, but it's like there's a tiny glimpse of.

Jack: There's some connection.

Cristina: Connection?

Jack: Yeah, they're either similar or the same.

Cristina: In different ways or like they're different types of the same thing.

Jack: Like a beaver and a badger.

Cristina: Yes. Oh, that's a good example. If you guys heard the shadow people story, not the shadow people. Which episode was that with the beaver and the badger?

Jack: And that was the Shadow Realm. Yeah.

Cristina: Okay. Yes. You guys check that episode out.

Jack: Yeah. Interesting.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: If you guys are interested in things of this nature, episodes of this type, there are many, many, many. We're building our understanding of the Shadow Realm as we move forward in order to capture some of these f****** on this side and find out what the h*** is going on with that.

Cristina: It feels like we're playing Pokemon.

Jack: Yeah. Catch them all.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And so, I mean, our prison is getting nice and packed. I like it. I mean, it's 95% just like reptilians.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But that's fine. Whatever. It's like, it's realistically 99% reptilian. It's a f****** planet worth of Reptilians and random s*** we added to it.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So it's like really, like 99.99% reptilians.

Cristina: That's a lot of Reptilians.

Jack: Yeah, but we got other s*** in there. Cat people and our guards who are subhumans. Oh, there's a s*** ton of cat people.

Cristina: Yeah. And roach people. I'm not sure. No, no, that's rare because we killed.

Jack: We destroyed a lot of them. Anything that was left was just not on planet.

Cristina: Yeah. So a few roach people, but they probably don't. They multiply like crazy. Yeah.

Jack: They're probably building an army.

Cristina: So. Yeah.

Jack: Yeah, there's probably war gonna happen at some point, but we got Reptilians to toss at them.

Cristina: Yep.

Jack: We're ready. We're getting ready. We just got to brainwash everybody we got.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: And we might have, like, ethereal beings on our side. Whatever. Anyways, if you guys want to hear more of those episodes, you can find the Shadow Realm episode. There's a Shadow Piece People episode, which is part of Groundhog Day episode, which you found out about all this s*** in the first place. And some Adrenochrome episodes and s*** of that nature to get caught up on what we're talking about.

Cristina: If this lawsuit and the Ireland episode, the Irish folklore.

Jack: Yes. So you can find all of those things@graythoughts.info or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

Cristina: And you can reach us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @JustConvopod.

Jack: Yes. And remember to subscribe and to rate. And if you feel so inclined, review.

Cristina: The show and let someone who might like this show know about it.

Jack: Yes, word of mouth. Very important. Find people who watch that garbage f****** show. Ghost. Ghost Adventures, where the guy gets that super Buff, jacked up guy who could, like, knock out a ghost in one shot.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Is just scared of everything he ever sees. See, if you know people who like that, then send them over here like this, tell them about this show, and they'll tune in and realize, oh, that's what they saw over there in Ghost Adventures.

Cristina: That's why they were that scared.

Jack: That's why they were that scared. Or that guy's a b****. That is a total coward. So, yeah, no, you could do that. Tell your friends, be like, hey, you like ghosts? I gotta show about ghosts for you.

Cristina: Ghostbusters. Yes, this has been the Just Conversation podcast. Take nothing personal and thanks for listening.

Jack: Bye. He's scooping the poop.

Cristina: Who's poop?

Jack: He's scooping his own poop.

Cristina: His own pool.

Jack: He says it. He's scoop of the poop. Scoop of the poopa de poop. Scooping the poop that you scoop. He's scooping the poop that.

Cristina: I don't know if that's right.

Jack: Amen. We know he's scooping poop.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And we know the poops being scooped.

Cristina: Definitely.

Jack: In order for this poop to be scooped, there must have been poop.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So somebody pooped. No other characters are mentioned in the story other than the fact that he's scooping poop.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: There's no cats, there's no dogs. There's no. No other person. Nothing else is mentioned other than the fact that he, the singular character, is.

Cristina: Cooping poop, but he doesn't say it's his poop. What if it was just poop?

Jack: It's not. It's from where? There's no other characters in the story. No other characters in the story. There's one character.

Cristina: Mention of someone else.

Jack: No, there's one character in the story. Him scooping the poop. Meaning it's his poopy scooping. Okay, this is writing 101.

Cristina: Okay. It's his poop.

Jack: It's not a magical poop that popped out of nowhere and just exists without a beginning and end. How do you know it's just always existed there?

Cristina: Yeah, that's why he's always scooping it, because it keeps reappearing.

Jack: No, the song is about the one time he pooped and then he scooped his poop.

Cristina: Just one moment.

Jack: Yes. It's about. Isn't that all songs are about a moment or an event, a series of events related to each other? If it's not one moment. But this sounds like a song about one moment where he was just scooping poop.

Cristina: Good morning. Good morning. The Just Conversation podcast is hosted by Christina Collazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by great dots.info art by Zero Lupo and logo by Seth McAllister. With social media managed by Amber Black.

Rambling 111: Shapeshifters

The Just Conversation Podcast, Vampire, Werewolf, Werewolves, Monsters, Scary, Terror, Horror, Aliens, Alien, Abduction, Lore, Folklore

What are the odds that all the creatures throughout folklore are the same species? Comparing Vampires, Werewolves, Chupacabras and deciding whether they are all just shapeshifters.

Story:
On their hunt to capture a werewolf, the duo dive deeper into the lore, general information and what creatures might be relative to werewolves. Unbeknown to them, they’d discover some scary truths about other creatures and uncover knowledge that perhaps werewolves and their true kind never wanted humans, clones, the illuminati and garbage sub-humans to know. Find out what on this episode of Just Conversation.

(This episode contains a transcript to make it accessible to Deaf and Hard of Hearing Audiences #DeafPodcast #PodcastTranscript)

+Episode Details

Remember to leaves us a rating wherever you listen to podcast!

Topics Discussed

  • Blood Drinking Werewolves
  • Vampire Werewolves
  • Shapeshifter DNA
  • Nightstalkers
  • Vampire & Werewolf Similarities
  • How Vampires are Made
  • Counting Vampires
  • Werewolf Fairy Tales
  • Little Red Riding Hood
  • Permission To Enter

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JustConvoPod

Facebook - https://facebook.com/justconvopod

Instagram - https://instagram.com/justconvopod



+Transcript

Jack: Is werewolf just a shapeshifter? And if so, what other creatures has that shapeshifter turned into? That and more coming up on this episode of Just Conversation.

Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.

Jack: Going live in 5, 4.

Cristina: What does live mean? Welcome to Just Conversation, the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas in childish ways. I'm your host, Christina.

Jack: And I'm Jack.

Cristina: And if you haven't yet, remember to hit that subscribe button to get notified the second new episodes are released.

Jack: Yes. And also, this show is most enjoyable. A listening partner to share opinions and ideas on the topics we discuss. So be sure to find some body fancy and turn on something fancy that can play such a fancy pantsy show.

Cristina: We're fancy.

Jack: We're fancy.

Cristina: Yes, we're definitely. What makes something fancy?

Jack: I don't know. Anything around us is fancy.

Cristina: What?

Jack: Things around us are fancy.

Cristina: Okay, well, but they don't know what things you're talking about.

Jack: Anything.

Cristina: Anything is fancy around us. Around us?

Jack: Yes. So they play the show. Yes, they're fancy.

Cristina: Okay. Oh, we make things fancy.

Jack: Yes. Anything that's in the wave range of our voices is fancy.

Cristina: Are our ways giving them cancer? Like the 5G thing? Since those things can give cancer? What can't give cancer? Can our voices give cancer?

Jack: No.

Cristina: Are you pausing?

Jack: Not unless we want them to, no.

Cristina: Okay, well, for now, we just want them to be fancy.

Jack: Sometimes we give people cancer intentionally, but that's just for our enemies who are listening.

Cristina: What? What enemies are listening? We have enemies.

Jack: We have many enemies.

Cristina: What?

Jack: War enemies.

Cristina: War enemies. The cat people.

Jack: Yeah, sure, I guess.

Cristina: I don't know who's our enemy is. I feel like we're friends with everyone.

Jack: No.

Cristina: Yes. Our listeners consider us their best friends.

Jack: Some listeners. Some of them are our enemies.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Well, if you get cancer, you know who you are.

Jack: Actually, they have to trace their cancer back to the show.

Cristina: Oh, yeah.

Jack: And then they'll know who they are.

Cristina: And then they all know.

Jack: Until then, they have no clue who they are. They're just confused. It's like, who am I? Do I have an identity?

Cristina: What?

Jack: I just woke up listening to this show. I don't remember anything prior to this show. And then they go to the hospital to get tests and they're like, you got cancer. And they're like, ah, that's a double whammy.

Cristina: They don't know who they are and they got cancer. They think they're cancer. Then what?

Jack: Everybody who listens to the show, Their memory gets wiped of all knowledge except the show.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: But when they go to the doctor, whether or not they have cancer, they know who they are and whether they're our enemy or not. But if they have cancer, they know they're our enemy. They're like, oh, my God, that's who I am. And also, I guess that makes me the enemy.

Cristina: Yes. Oh, wow.

Jack: They don't even think they're the good guy. They're like, I'm the bad guy.

Cristina: Mmm. And this happens every time they listen to our show?

Jack: Yes. Everybody who's ever listened to the show has immediately gone to the hospital afterwards because of amnesia.

Cristina: Oh, my gosh. Are we starting something?

Jack: It's kind of like that Pokemon thing where the kids got, like, seizure. Allegedly.

Cristina: Yeah. Everyone got seizures.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: After the news broke out that everyone's getting seizures.

Jack: Yes. It's weird. Dude, that's mass hysteria. For real.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: That was in the mass hysteria episode, wasn't it? Yeah, it was, man. Yeah. Good episode.

Cristina: Yeah. Also, the vampires, when we talked about vampires and the history of, like, real.

Jack: Cases, that was all his nuns biting people and s***.

Cristina: I don't remember that. Nuns. I know. Nuns were singing.

Jack: Hold the.

Cristina: No, they were meowing.

Jack: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Cristina: Wait, wait, wait, wait.

Jack: Not only do I have this inkling that Christ was a vampire, but we'll address that later. We have an actual case. Religious vampires. There were nuns f****** biting people.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And you mentioned that before.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Also in the Mass of Syria episode.

Cristina: Possibly. Yes.

Jack: Bro, were those nuns vampires or werewolves?

Cristina: I don't know. I mean, you go against the Church, you become one of them again.

Jack: Holy s***. There's already. Whoa. There's a couple of crossing lines there.

Cristina: Yeah. The Church is creating monsters.

Jack: Yeah. Yeah, they are.

Cristina: Yes. I don't know, but if you remember from last time on Dragon Ball Z on Just Conversation. Well, last time when I was talking about werewolves, we were talking about two different types of werewolves. We were getting to something. To Adrenochrome.

Jack: We were getting to Adrenochrome.

Cristina: Yes. We were getting to Adrenochrome. We were getting to werewolves that turn into vampires after they die, Right? Yes. And.

Jack: Wait, werewolves turn into vampires after they die?

Cristina: Yes. When they die. For some reason, they're. How was it? Okay. When they die. When werewolves die, their human body stays a human during the daytime, but at night, they still become werewolves. But instead of just craving flesh like they normally do, they Crave blood. Yes.

Jack: So. Oh, yeah, I remember that. But does that make them? I guess it does. But that really. And I guess, like we were talking about in that episode, that breaks into the idea that they're sort of two different souls fighting for one body. Or not souls, but living things. There's two things fighting for one body and the vampire is one of those things.

Cristina: And the vampire.

Jack: But the living other thing is dead.

Cristina: Yeah, it's dead. So it's just a vampire going to a dead body at night and turning into a wolf to drink blood. Yeah, that's what's going on. Maybe. I don't know. To solve that the living dead werewolf problem, they would have to destroy the body. The werewolf sneaking into the battlefield was back in Greece in the 19th century. But in parts of Germany, Poland and northern France, dead people will come back to life to drink blood as wolves. If they were living in mortals and evil people, when evil people died, they would become werewolves.

Jack: Drink blood. So there was no. Like you need something else to make you werewolves. Just being a bad person made you a werewolf?

Cristina: Yes. After death, though.

Jack: So werewolves are zombies.

Cristina: Yes. That drink blood.

Jack: That drink bloods of vampires?

Cristina: Yes, But I don't know why. But yes. And then they will return into their human form at the daylight, like the battle, the ones in Greece, I think.

Jack: Fascinating.

Cristina: And they would need a priest to decapitate it and do an exorcism. Like, you know, when a regular demon goes into a body situation, I guess. And then the head would be thrown into a river. I don't know why, but you gotta throw that head into the river somehow.

Jack: That solves the problem.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: The murder part had nothing to do with it.

Cristina: No. You just needed that head to throw into the river.

Jack: So if the head is not in the river. Boom. Still alive.

Cristina: Yeah. Maybe it'll find its head, put it back on, and then continue on drinking blood.

Jack: So in theory, that body could still move around. It'll just be aimless.

Cristina: Yes, in theory, I guess. I don't know. Or maybe once the head is in the water, the body just can't move. It needs to know that the head is round to continue moving.

Jack: Interesting. Interesting.

Cristina: And then new things about werewolves that we didn't mention before was, you know, the normal. They're vulnerable to silver and highly resistant to injury. Except that you could cut them. I mean, I guess that's not an injury you're forcing. You're like breaking them apart to kill them. Oh, those poor people who are. Who are mistaken as werewolves. I guess it Sucks for them. It sucks.

Jack: It goes back to, you know, how do you tell if somebody's a witch? You drown them. If they're dead, they're not a witch. But if they don't drown, they are a witch. So my question is, did they ever discover a witch? Because they probably just drown. Hella m************.

Cristina: Yeah. And the werewolf thing, I guess the werewolf test of, like, if they have fur under their skin, that's proof. I don't know. Well, that's a weird proof.

Jack: Yeah, it's like, oh, I guess he wasn't a werewolf.

Cristina: How many hands were cut? And if you put silver on them, I think their skin is supposed to burn as well.

Jack: Which they've probably also never seen.

Cristina: No. What if a person's allergic to silver? Is that a possibility?

Jack: I wonder if that's a thing. That's interesting.

Cristina: Yeah. How many people allergic to silver has that happened?

Jack: But, like, their skin wouldn't burn, they just get, like, a rash?

Cristina: No, they get a rash. Yeah. But they're gonna look.

Jack: And not even immediately. Not even immediately.

Cristina: How long after?

Jack: It would take a while to have a reaction.

Cristina: Oh, well, they'll wait for that and then say, that's a burn. And in places that wolves weren't a thing, there were other things that were very similar. Like in Africa, there was the were hyena. In India, a were tiger. In South America, there were were pumas and were jaguars. And in Asian countries, they had were foxes. That's pretty cool.

Jack: That'd be cool.

Cristina: Were fox.

Jack: A were fox. It's like a little anime girl.

Cristina: How do you like? So I have to move into one of those places. I wonder if turning into those were creatures are the same as a werewolf.

Jack: Like, you gotta drink their print water.

Cristina: Yes. Or be asleep in a summer day with the sun hitting your face on a Wednesday or Friday.

Jack: Look, man, if you're gonna become a fox. Yeah. You gotta be like, in an autumn field. And it has to be like a half a moon. And it needs to be out, like in dusk when the sun is still out. So you could get hit by both, because that's around the time you'll see a fox. And that's when you get hit by both of those. And the combined power. Boom. Now you are a fox. Human person thing. A were fox.

Cristina: But what if, because I was born in a place where wolves are common, I just end up being a werewolf?

Jack: You think that'd be interesting. So let's say hypothetically, this stuff is real.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And the regional DNA is really what's making the transformation on the creatures of the area?

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So if you went to an area where there were different creatures, would your DNA still be the DNA from your region? Because your DNA doesn't change.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: What you have is in your DNA. Just because you went somewhere else doesn't mean you'd suddenly become like a were hyena. Because you went from the US to Africa. I wish you would just become a werewolf.

Cristina: Yeah. Slim.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: Or were deer. I feel like it's always a dangerous animal. You can't be a were deer.

Jack: In that case it would like. That would be horrifying anyways. But in that case it would. You could be a were buffalo.

Cristina: Were. But it feels like it has to be something that eats meat.

Jack: Why? You could be a were buffalo and just beat the s*** out of somebody without eating them.

Cristina: But all those examples of all those were places had meat eating animals.

Jack: But why can't there be examples that are just something that'll beat like a were elephant? You just grow over size and everywhere you go.

Cristina: Haven't heard of it. There should be were hippos.

Jack: Were hippo. A were hippo. Like a hippo doesn't even need to eat meat. It's just gonna murder. It murders because it can just three.

Cristina: Times the size of a hippo. Oh my gosh.

Jack: Yeah, man.

Cristina: That's too like if something like that.

Jack: Bipedal hippo freak.

Cristina: Yeah, a bipedal.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: No, you would have three legs with one leg up.

Jack: Because hippos have an extra skinny short leg. You have three normal hippo sized legs and then one really skinny short leg, like abnormally short to fit the tiny, tiny, tiny tail the hippo has. And then that one leg pretends to be the hippo's tail.

Cristina: Yes. Because it's a smart hippo.

Jack: It's a smart hippo. That's so disturbing about like werewolves that they would even do that.

Cristina: Yes, but that is so disturbing. But anyways, lets talk about werewolves and vampires and the common traits of a werewolf and a vampire piece. I would love to talk about vampires. I want to compare and contrast. Well, we know that they're both creatures of the night.

Jack: Yes. Although I don't think it's exclusively creatures of the night for werewolves. There are versions of werewolves that are purebred werewolves that move in the daylight. I think they just need the full moon to transform. Or in some cases it's to transform.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Like in other cases it just permanently keeps them transformed.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So a lot of the versions of werewolf are that I'M only a werewolf as long as there's a full moon. And as soon as the full moon's gone, I'm not a werewolf.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And it needs to be night so that the light of the moon is the most dominant light in the sky. So the moon could be full and outside, but you not be a werewolf because it's not the most dominant light in the sky. You're getting sunlight combined with moonlight. You need strong moonlight without the sun in the way. In the way to turn. In other cases, you are already carrying a werewolf DNA and you could become a werewolf, but you have to kill the werewolf that turned you into a werewolf before your next full moon, or you become permanently a werewolf. Those are two different variants. And in the case of that second option, you could become a werewolf day.

Cristina: Or night if you're a baby werewolf. If you're unrelated to the main werewolf, you could do it whenever.

Jack: If you've been bitten and turned into a werewolf, you don't need the full moon to turn into a werewolf.

Cristina: All right.

Jack: You just permanently get trapped as a werewolf after the full moon.

Cristina: And then after the full moon, though, then it has to be a full moon.

Jack: Interesting. Maybe those are two things that work together because you can. I don't know why it would stop you suddenly from being able to turn. Maybe because it could be like you turn whenever, but then after the full moon. Now you turn only on the full moon. I feel like that's less productive than you turning whenever.

Cristina: Yeah, but also for the vampire. Not all stories have vampires that are weak during the day or they have to sleep during daytime. That just became the favorite over time.

Jack: But usually they're hybrids.

Cristina: Hybrids?

Jack: Yeah. They're not pure vampires.

Cristina: How can you tell?

Jack: Because pure vampires can't go out in daylight.

Cristina: Well, in some stories, I guess. But some stories, some vampires can I believe.

Jack: Usually those are the very, very old vampires. And they still get affected by the sunlight. Like it burns slowly. So they can travel through the sunlight, but they can't stay in the sunlight.

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: Yeah, there's actually. I forgot what it was called. It's a breakdown of how vampires work. Like their age ranges or something like that. Really, they're. Before a certain point, going into the sunlight turns you into stone or it ignites your skin. Actually, yeah. One turns you into stone, the younger ones, and then they crumble or ash. It turns them into ash. Then somewhere in their teens, a vampirism, they get turned into stone. Then somewhere in their mid middle age, they get a vampirism. You could be any age, but like in the middle ages of being a vampire.

Cristina: So it would be like hundreds of years pass.

Jack: Yeah, hundreds of years or something like that. Maybe like 200 years. Your skin sets on fire, but you don't die instantly the way you do younger, where you get turned into stone or ash. Then later you get. Your body sizzles, but you do not ignite. And then finally your body gradually starts heating up so you can move through.

Cristina: Sunlight but sizzle like you tan or.

Jack: No, like your body will eventually burn the way it would. Like in all of these instances, your body's still burning, but it's slower and slower each time.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: At the first case you just turn to ash. In the second case you turn to stone and then to ash, but you gradually turn to stone.

Cristina: Yeah, but these are like hundreds or like years apart from each stage.

Jack: Yes, yes. We're talking like the first one within the first hundred years. Second one, Maybe the first two, 300 years. The third one maybe like 500 years. You know, giant gaps.

Cristina: Okay, so then in both situations then they. They're mainly at night still. Werewolves and vampires.

Jack: Not werewolves.

Cristina: Vampires, not werewolves. Okay.

Jack: Vampires are mainly at night. Werewolves have some ways around the rules.

Cristina: Yeah. Especially baby you, I guess, bitten ones. That's what you're saying.

Jack: Yeah. Because there are bits born werewolves, there's also born vampires that work very differently. There's the whole trade off of when a creature is born with the DNA and when a creature is turned. Now there's all. There are some versions of each of these that don't allow for birth to happen. So you can only become. You can't be born as.

Cristina: Yes. And the way they become, though, are the same. That they have to be bitten. Yes, that it has to be through blood or saliva.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: And I think that's pretty much it that I could think of that they have in common, though.

Jack: But there are some crossing lines between werewolves and vampires that seem to be pretty similar.

Cristina: Yeah. Let's talk about vampires and where they come from, because we know werewolves are. Well, we really don't know much. We know that they could either be made or by gods getting revenge. Remember that? Yeah. Or wearing a furry belt.

Jack: Being a furry.

Cristina: Being a furry. Being bitten could turn you into a werewolf, of course.

Jack: Or drinking print water.

Cristina: Yep.

Jack: Or being outside in the moonlight.

Cristina: Vampires could be just evil people, people who committed suicide or witches that are coming back to life after they're dead because of. I guess evilness is bringing them back to dead from the dead. Yes. And they could Also be created by. By evil spirit or by being bitten by a vampire.

Jack: By evil spirit. Yeah. Being bitten by a vampire is normal. And what do they mean by evil spirit?

Cristina: Just like a spirit going into a dead body.

Jack: So a person who's possessed is a vampire?

Cristina: Yeah, could turn into a vampire.

Jack: So all the exorcist movies are about vampires?

Cristina: Yes, only if they suck blood. That's the important part. Right.

Jack: So vampires. A vampiric spirit.

Cristina: Yeah, a vampiric spirit will turn you into a vampire. Also, in Slavic and Chinese traditions, dead bodies that are jumped over by an animal, usually a dog or a cat, their chances of being a vampire is pretty great.

Jack: That's weird. I don't know why that's pretty weird. That's pretty weird.

Cristina: Yes. And in Russia, vampires were witches or people who had rebelled against the church.

Jack: My question is then, are they vampires who suck blood or are they describing these people as vampires? Is it like a title rather than a creature?

Cristina: I think it's a creature. I think they really believe they're going to become this creature that drinks blood after they're dead.

Jack: Okay, that's weird.

Cristina: That's weird.

Jack: I'm sure the Church made that up.

Cristina: You think the Church made that up?

Jack: Yeah, to control people into following the line.

Cristina: Mmm. But a lot of these stories came before the church, too. Like the jumping dog on the dead body predates Christianity. What, the dog jumping over a dead body? Possibly.

Jack: You think it predates Christianity? You're telling me that that myth of a animal jumping over a person and that person transforming predates Christianity? Running the world, which seems to be one of the longest running jokes in all of time.

Cristina: Do we have pet dogs before Christianity?

Jack: That doesn't mean that myth came to be.

Cristina: That's true. I don't know.

Jack: Even when the concept of werewolf came to be.

Cristina: Yeah, well, the Greek ones, that would have been pre Christianity, wouldn't it, if Zeus was turning you into a werewolf?

Jack: Is this, I guess, was turning people.

Cristina: Into werewolves just one dude for being bad?

Jack: Fair enough.

Cristina: So unless he was Zeus around when.

Jack: God was around, I'm sure they're brothers.

Cristina: Yeah. And some more weird vampire stuff that you probably did not know is that in Europe, to slow down a vampire, you would cut their tendons on their knees. Ow. The dead body. If you suspected that dead body to be a vampire, you would cut their knee.

Jack: That seems legit. But why? Oh, what's the owl for? They're dead.

Cristina: Yeah, that's true. That's true. They're dead, so who cares? But it's such a weird. No, I guess I'm still thinking about the werewolves and like how you're torturing these living people to see. But these are dead people, so it's okay.

Jack: Yeah, you just mutilated that body. It's all good.

Cristina: That's fine. And then you also would place seeds, millet, sand around the grave. Because vampires love counting things, I guess. I don't know. No, because the sesame vampire.

Jack: It's because your f****** name is the Count. Is that why the Count?

Cristina: What? Vampires have to count things. I don't know why. They just do.

Jack: That's so crazy that they have to.

Cristina: They have this obsession of counting things.

Jack: To count all the sugar grains around them. Come on, man.

Cristina: Yes. If you have a lot of. A little bit of things like sand, they just. You'll trap a vampire.

Jack: That doesn't make sense. And why is a vampire functional at all? When they're in the forest, why aren't they just counting all the rocks? Big a** holes in that f****** plant?

Cristina: Because they're not in the forest, they're in graves.

Jack: Why aren't they counting all the dead bodies and all the insects in the.

Cristina: We don't know. They didn't do that before. They had to drink blood. They counted really fast and then they went to get food.

Jack: Nah, man. There's holes here.

Cristina: Yeah, that's in Europe. But China also has the same thing where a sack. You throw a sack of rice in front of a vampire, they have to count every grain of rice.

Jack: No, I disagree. That doesn't make any sense.

Cristina: How do you know the weakness of.

Jack: A vampire is not a bag of rice?

Cristina: Yes, you slow them down that way. How did you not? Have you heard of that before?

Jack: I've heard about it. I just don't believe it.

Cristina: Yeah, how are we to judge? We haven't seen it. We haven't tried it out.

Jack: Because then it's easy to beat them.

Cristina: Well, then you have to actually attack them afterwards. I guess that would be the hard part.

Jack: Just keep throwing bags of f****** rice.

Cristina: What happens when you run out of it?

Jack: You won't. You won't.

Cristina: And we don't know how fast they can count.

Jack: Not fast enough. You just keep throwing bags of rice. Yeah, they aren't lightning. Yeah, they're fast, but not light.

Cristina: You try to lead them to a beach.

Jack: Yeah, I wonder if that. Yeah, that's it. They're done. You win.

Cristina: They're just frozen. They're counting the sand.

Jack: How could they even differentiate beyond some point? How do they know what they've Counted?

Cristina: I don't know. They just have to restart. It's a mess. It's a vampire nightmare. Yeah, that's why you don't see vampires on the beach.

Jack: How do they know, man? Like, how does a vampire exit their grave and make it out? Because there's trees maybe.

Cristina: It has to be just tiny things because all these things are really tiny.

Jack: So they're like Valley Girls and like Tokyo party girls that they just love tiny things.

Cristina: Yes. Yes they are. Why are you judging these vampires who are obsessed with tiny things and need to count them all?

Jack: Apparently. Do they also shop at the Gap? The f***?

Cristina: And to protect yourself against vampires? Well, you probably know all these things. Garlic, the Bible, crucifix, holy water and mirrors. Ward off the vampire.

Jack: I'm 95% sure the church has nothing.

Cristina: To do with that.

Jack: No, the Bible created a vampire.

Cristina: The Bible created a vampire.

Jack: I'm sure reading from the Bible is how vampires are made. It's like making holy water.

Cristina: What do you mean?

Jack: Like a passage out of the Bible into a cup or something.

Cristina: And then what? Then you turn it to holy water.

Jack: It's turned into holy water? I guess.

Cristina: I don't really know.

Jack: Boil it.

Cristina: Boil it.

Jack: You boil the h*** out of it. And then it's holy water.

Cristina: And then it's holy water.

Jack: Yeah, because you boiled the h*** out of it.

Cristina: Well, so tell me that doesn't make sense. Huh? And vampires are unable to cross sacred ground like churches and temples. And for some reason they can't cross water. I don't know if water is also sacred or they just can't swim or. Now what's going on?

Jack: Let's look at a couple of descriptions of vampires, right?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: If you're already excessively white, it's hard to call you pale per se. In the dead of night, you're just white. But if you're already dark skinned, then it's easy to say that person is pale because they are a different kind of dark skin that looks kind of like if you put a fade filter over something that they have like that kind of pale off color look.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So this goes back to the racist ideology that black people can't swim. And also saying that black people were the vampires, you're saying they were the.

Cristina: Vampires and the werewolves.

Jack: I'm saying white people made all of these up, which means the white person has to be the hero according to the white person, which means the monster had to be the non white person.

Cristina: Whoa. What? Why are you ruining these creatures?

Jack: Because white people are racist.

Cristina: Well, we Know that.

Jack: Who is it who isn't racist? Like, fair enough. Who's not racist? Anybody who's like, only the white people are racist. Like, shut up. Shut up. Had you been in that position, you'd call them vampires.

Cristina: I call them vampires.

Jack: Although the witches were also colored women.

Cristina: Weren't they just women?

Jack: They were colored women.

Cristina: They were young women. I thought, yeah, young colored women crazy.

Jack: A lot of the time.

Cristina: Or older ladies. I don't know.

Jack: Colored women a lot of the time, yes.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That's why the voodoo priestess thing is very commonly the black woman. That all. It's coming back from the same tree of. Oh, they do magic, those witches. Those are the black women.

Cristina: Ah.

Jack: That just branches down now.

Cristina: They're werewolves, vampires and witches, which are.

Jack: All just white people coming up with different derogatory names and s*** for just ways to get black people killed.

Cristina: Okay. What? Yeah, it's crazy. That's so messed up. But anyway, vampires can't enter the house unless you invite them over.

Jack: That's a weird one.

Cristina: Yeah. And they can go come and go after that point. It's just the first time thing, which they need your permission, but once you give it to them, that's it.

Jack: Interesting. Interesting.

Cristina: I don't know why, but I don't know, I wonder.

Jack: Because it's. Let's see, things that have those same rules. There are, like, the Bible has those rules. You gotta let Jesus into your heart and give them permission. You gotta give them permission. Do you accept Christ as your savior? No. Then he can't come in. And vampires have to also do that same thing. Werewolves don't give a s***. They'll break in.

Cristina: Yeah, but the werewolf stories, they didn't seem to break into any place. They were just outside waiting for you.

Jack: Yeah, interesting, maybe.

Cristina: So maybe they can't come in.

Jack: But they don't have the capacity to communicate, to try to convince you. Like, can I come in?

Cristina: Yes. Except for that werewolf. In that story of the Little Red.

Jack: Riding Hood, she asked for permission.

Cristina: Yeah, He. To the. I think to get in the first time with the old lady, he had to be like, I'm, you know, I'm Little Red Riding Hood. You gotta let me in. And she's like, okay. And then she let him in. And then he, you know, did all.

Jack: That interesting twist on that because for the three little pigs, he also asked for permission to go in. And he said, if you're not gonna let me in, I'll knock your f****** house down.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: He can't just break in. Dude, you could Blow their house down.

Cristina: But he can't go into their door in. Maybe they have the same rule.

Jack: Holy s***. I think they have the same rules.

Cristina: Oh, snap.

Jack: They're just at least that polite about it. They're not gonna be like, hey, can I come in for a cup of dinner?

Cristina: Because they can't communicate that way.

Jack: Yeah. Interesting, interesting. So then my question is what we know that tales like these children's tales come from either warnings that adults have created for children to warn them about bads of the world without making them scared of people.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Or real events that have happened in people's that they're warning about in a more literal sense. In the case of the Three Little Piggies and Little Red Riding Hood, were those situations with real werewolves? Because in both cases they were in the forest where the werewolf hangs out.

Cristina: But they called them wolves. They were just wolves.

Jack: Of course. Of course.

Cristina: But it's to not scare the kids from werewolves, I guess.

Jack: Yeah. Because you were talking about a human talking to a wolf.

Cristina: I don't know. Yeah.

Jack: And the three Little pigs, hams, those are just white people.

Cristina: They were calling themselves little pigs. Okay.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Why didn't they pick something else?

Jack: Just a way to make a cute story, I guess. But they're talking to a werewolf or something.

Cristina: Mmm. Yeah.

Jack: And so that werewolf, they were maybe having a legit conversation with a werewolf in those stories. Like, what's the real, the groove version of it, you know? Like, is there a f****** werewolf in these situations that they're having a conversation with? In the case of Little Red Riding Hood, the werewolf can't get in because this goes back to what we're talking about. These lines are crossing heavily because there are the same rules. They kind of have the same timelines, they have the same ways of turning into one another. Are we just talking about a shapeshifter? Take many different forms, but it doesn't matter because the same rules for turning into the same rules for entering property, the same rules for defeat to some degree are all there.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: You got to remove the head of a vampire the same way you got to remove the head of a f****** werewolf.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: The bite turns you. In both cases, usually killing the one who turned you turns you back. If you do it before a certain period of time or whatever.

Cristina: So it's all the same story.

Jack: Interesting. In vampire's case, you have to kill the vampire before your bloodlust gets to you, before you have to feed.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So you kill the vampire who turned you before you feed. The way you kill the wolf who turned you before the full moon so.

Cristina: You'Re not permanently permanent.

Jack: Same way you're not permanent a vampire if you kill the other one before you drink human blood. If you drink human blood, you stay a vampire.

Cristina: So it's the same story. It's just about a different creature. But it's practice. It's practically the same creature. Maybe.

Jack: Yeah, there's some real close lines there.

Cristina: Yeah. And although, like I mentioned before, although vampires were believed to be more active at night, they were not generally considered vulnerable to the sunlight. I don't know. Like, through time they've become weaker to the sun. But originally the sun wasn't their weakness or anything. They just like to move around during the night.

Jack: It was just easier at night.

Cristina: Yeah, I guess because you can catch.

Jack: People at home, people out. You can't. How hard is it to feed outside with streets filled with people?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Especially when everybody's walking.

Cristina: But if it's the same with werewolves, like, you gotta wait for night because.

Jack: That'S the easier time. You could just, like, attack people on their own versus groups.

Cristina: Yeah. Mmm. That could be it. What? What? And the different methods of destroying a vampire. Or I guess, murder. I guess you can't really say murder because it's already dead.

Jack: It's not dead. Neither a vampire nor a zombie are dead.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: We've established this.

Cristina: But it's. The person who was. The vampire is dead, though.

Jack: Disagree.

Cristina: No. You think the person's still alive?

Jack: Yes, I think in both cases the person is alive. You're just talking about level of brain function in the case.

Cristina: I mean, the original person. Like, if a vampire takes over your body, you're not there anymore.

Jack: I don't think there's a different per. I think a vampire is like, interview with a vampire. Like, that guy remembers his past life, he remembers all of it, and he's like, man, I wish I could go back to being that.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But, like, I'm here now. I can't stop it.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That seems real to me versus, I guess I just see to exist.

Cristina: Okay. Because that's how it sounds like, though. Like, a demon comes into your dead body.

Jack: And in the case of you being possessed and thus being a vampire. I guess. Yeah, but you turning into a vampire, that's not something else invading you. That's you who already exists. Turning. Turning into a vampire.

Cristina: Yeah, well. Okay, well, when you turn into a vampire, the things we gotta do to get rid of you is taking you through the heart and some. And through the mouth. For some reason. I don't know why the mouth, but.

Jack: The brain, maybe you're trying to hit the brain, maybe.

Cristina: And the stomach. Those are the three good spots.

Jack: So you mean, like where the heart is, the brain is, or like, organs. Vital organs. So essentially the way you'd kill a human.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Do that and you'll kill a vampire?

Cristina: Definitely. Well, yeah. Yeah, it's exactly the same.

Jack: Sounds about right. I feel like a lot of things could be killed that way.

Cristina: Also, getting rid of the head and then burning it.

Jack: Sounds about right.

Cristina: Oh, burying the head between the feet or behind the b*** or away from the body for some reason. You just got to keep that head away once you get it off the.

Jack: Body, because the body is gonna go get it the same way a werewolf would.

Cristina: But if you hide it behind its b***, can it just get it?

Jack: Not if you tie its hands in the front and you tape the head to the b***. How would he get the head if his hands are tight in front of him? You can also do it the opposite way and tie his hand behind him. And if he's a guy, you can hang his own head off of his own d***, tape it against her. So he's forever blowing himself, but he can't do anything but blow himself, but blow himself for all of eternity.

Cristina: Whoa. Revenge on that vampire. Revenge.

Jack: Also something that applies to anyone and everyone, except in most cases, those people are dead. And you just made a corpse blow itself.

Cristina: Yes. Why? Whatever. We're crazy. You can't blame us. We're crazy.

Jack: Yeah. There's something wrong with humans for sure.

Cristina: And also, pouring boiling water over the grave. What?

Jack: To, like, super make sure.

Cristina: I guess instead of burning it, you don't got fire. Use water.

Jack: Here's the thing. I think the grave, like, is the grave already covered back up?

Cristina: Huh?

Jack: Because if it's, like, there's a bunch of dirt, like, that dirt's gonna, like, cool that water down.

Cristina: We should probably do it to the body. If we're gonna burn the body, why not boil the body as well?

Jack: With, like, oil?

Cristina: With oil.

Jack: With oil, not water. Going easy.

Cristina: Yeah. Also, vampires could be shot or drowned, of course, or sprinkled by holy water.

Jack: So everything plus demon stuff. So a vampire is basically a person and could die any way you'd kill a person.

Cristina: Plus exorcism.

Jack: Plus exorcism.

Cristina: Although I feel like if you exercise a human, they might die too.

Jack: Some of the methods of exorcism would kill a normal human.

Cristina: Yes. That's why there has been cases where humans who were exercised go to court against the church because, like, I had mental problems and you destroyed me. That's been real thing that has happened, too.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: Yeah. And then you could also put garlic in its mouth and then shoot a bullet through the coffin.

Jack: So, like, I don't feel you need the garlic at that point. Like, you could just.

Cristina: If you just do one, it won't work.

Jack: Just shoot him. He's fine. But if he's got garlic and you shoot him, boom, you solve that problem.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Isn't the garlic what's being effective there? Why don't you just fill, like, prison style instead of filling a bag up with soap?

Cristina: And if you don't have garlic, you could use lemon. You put lemon in its mouth.

Jack: So like, maybe being a vampire is more of a, like, genetic disorder where, like, you're just allergic to a bunch of s***.

Cristina: You're just allergic to a bunch of.

Jack: You're allergic to garlic and lemons. And then they put them there and you, like, super weak and dying and can't breathe, and then they shoot you.

Cristina: Duh. Oh, I forgot to mention. Oh, my gosh. This story. To find the graves of vampires. Oh, my gosh. You need to have a virgin boy riding a virgin horse. And then the horse will get scared at the grave that the vampire is in.

Jack: Because vampires rape virgin boys and horses.

Cristina: I don't know. I just think the priest might need help to know which one's the virgin.

Jack: I do, too. I think that's exactly what's happening. I think this goes back to white people in power and the church, for whatever reason.

Cristina: But why a virgin horse? You think he needs the horse too?

Jack: Probably.

Cristina: When he can't have the boy, he'll have the horse.

Jack: No, no, no. He's gonna have the boy, but he's also gonna have the horse.

Cristina: Oh, my gosh. Also, graves with hoes over it. I guess, like, hoes are appearing on top of the grave.

Jack: That's an arm that poked out.

Cristina: I guess maybe that's what they think happened.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: And they're just holes there. Maybe someone's trying to actually steal that grave or something.

Jack: I think it's the other way around. I think they accidentally buried a living person who was like, I could do it.

Cristina: I can do it. I can get out, get out. Then that person suffocates and dies, but they think it's a vampire. So they're gonna put a lemon in its mouth and shoot it?

Jack: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. If they. I wonder how many times that happened. They accidentally. Like, somebody was in a coma or passed out. Or some s***. They threw him in a grave, and they. The person gains consciousness while in this hole.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And then they're trying to get out, and they're like, it's a vampire. F****** shoot it. Not Jimmy was alive. F****** kill it. It's a zombie or something.

Cristina: Nope, just shoot it. That's so crazy, taking no chances.

Jack: I think that's why it's a law or some s*** that you got to dig a shallow grave when you put somebody at the beginning.

Cristina: Really.

Jack: I think so. I'm not really sure.

Cristina: I know they have, like, bells on graves just in case they bury a person alive so you can ring that bell. I don't even know if that's a true story. That might just have been a legend. And then people just took it too seriously and were like, just in case this happens to me, I want a bell on my grave.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: But I don't know.

Jack: Maybe I'll be buried alive.

Cristina: Mm. So now that's enough vampire talks. Let's talk about other creatures that are. That can transform and drink blood. I guess that's the important thing we need that's in common with vampires and werewolves and chupacabras.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: And the first creature up is wendingos, and I. Not really sure what a wendigo look like. It's a creature that takes over a body, and that person goes mad and eats people.

Jack: Now, to my understanding, a wendingo kind of looks like a werewolf.

Cristina: I don't think so. Do they?

Jack: I do think so, but I don't. Here's the. Here's the difference. I don't think they look like it. Depictions of them look like it. Yeah, that's the problem. When dingoes are depicted, it's kind of looking like werewolf.

Cristina: Yeah. But then they go inside the human, and then the human does these acts.

Jack: I don't think the wind dingo looks like that. I think the human dingo combo looks like that.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Yes. Because there's a. The original wendigo that turns.

Jack: That's just.

Cristina: Yeah, but like a werewolf and a vampire that they have to be bitten. This thing bites, I guess, quote unquote, the. The victim, and then he turns into a win dingo and then he murders everyone.

Jack: Yes. There you go.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So they turn to something that looks like a werewolf in depictions, in depictions.

Cristina: Okay. But from the stories, it just. It's really crazy when dingles, after being after a person is. Becomes a win dingle. They just. They have an incredible need for greed, murder, and cannibalism. Even though there might Be food around, they'll still murder.

Jack: So they're like just aggressively wrathful and violent.

Cristina: Yes. There's been like two cases about Wendingell's. One case was in 1878 where a guy named Swift Runner and his family were starving and there was emergency food 25 miles away. And for some reason, instead of the guy going to get the food, Swift Runner just killed and ate his family, which were like I think five other people. And then he eventually confessed to the crime and got executed.

Jack: But he doesn't sound like he was a win dingo. He sounds like a f****** lunatic who was clear minded.

Cristina: Probably blamed the Wendigo. Yeah, yeah. That's why I think happened. I mean it could be just a crazy guy.

Jack: Sounds like a crazy guy.

Cristina: That's what. There's the debate over this Wendingo thing. Like are these really people that. What is. Are these people? Do these people really believe that they got the spirit taking over them to kill an ether family which makes them a schizophrenic or are they lying and just. They want. They kill their family and they need.

Jack: An excuse, which is where the Wendingo comes in.

Cristina: Yeah. So I don't know, like in theory.

Jack: If you're in a place that's superstitious enough, you could get away with that.

Cristina: If you're. Yeah, I guess. But he didn't get away with that. And they've also. There was another case where just the person who takes care of the Wendingo problem got in trouble because he was killing the Wendigo, which is really. He was killing people.

Jack: So he was a serial killer.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Picked very specific people, killed them and said they were possessed by Wendingo.

Cristina: Yeah, yeah, that's. Wow.

Jack: That's a clever way. But that just goes back to the serial killer who was pretending he was hearing the voice of a dog.

Cristina: Yes, that's exactly what these cases reminded me of. Because that's what they were arguing. Like whether is he really hearing a demon talk to him saying kill these people or is he using that as excuse to kill these people?

Jack: He was the Son of Sam, right?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So they were basically doing the Son.

Cristina: Of Sam shtick before he.

Jack: Before the son. Which case. That makes the Son of Sam the. The f****** copycat killer.

Cristina: Oh, maybe. But he wasn't eating people, so it wasn't the same type of crime he was committing.

Jack: Interesting. Interesting.

Cristina: He was just shooting ladies.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Yep.

Jack: But claiming that the reason was.

Cristina: Was because of a demon dog.

Jack: Yeah, I was hearing demon dog.

Cristina: Yep.

Jack: And thus I went ahead and did the crime.

Cristina: Yeah. So it might be the same case. I don't know. And then there's this other creature that's called the witchooge, which is a man eating creature that could also possess people. It's like an ancient giant animal in its natural form, I think. And then it goes into regular people.

Jack: Like an ancient giant animal. Like that physical creature.

Cristina: Like a spirit animal.

Jack: Forest spirit. Like Shinto.

Cristina: Yeah, like a giant spirit animal comes inside of Zelda.

Jack: Twilight Princess with the floating animal spirits that you gotta collect the gems from and keep them kind of in reality.

Cristina: I have no idea. I don't remember that. But yes. These giant spirit animals come inside you.

Jack: They come inside you they come inside you these giant spirit animals come inside.

Cristina: You youu can become. Oh, it's huge. By breaking a taboo or becoming too strong. I don't know what too strong means, but like maybe you work out too much and then you become now a man eating creature.

Jack: Out of curiosity, do you actually eat people or you beat the s*** out of them is a common trait. Beating the s*** out of them?

Cristina: No, it's eating so they don't beat.

Jack: The s*** out of people.

Cristina: No, I mean, maybe, I don't know. But it seeks to eat people.

Jack: Interesting. Have they seen people? Have they seen people possessed by this? Are there stories of people?

Cristina: There's just stories of people because it's.

Jack: Possible that the steroids of that time were causing roid rage. And that's what they mean by too strong.

Cristina: Too strong? Yeah.

Jack: Then you're having blind rages over dumb s*** and just beating the s*** out.

Cristina: Of people to death, fighting them. And then they're like, ah, he's a wetchug. Well, you want to hear about the taboos that you shouldn't break?

Jack: I guess it could be witch hudge. So long as there's a GE at the end, which Hudge. Either way it works.

Cristina: You want to hear about the taboos yet you should not break.

Jack: Taboos for what? For the witch. Huge.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: For the witch Hudge.

Cristina: Yes, go for it. There's probably a bunch, but three of them. A person that has that takes gets a picture of them with a flash. I guess that flash is a taboo. If you get a picture of you taken with a flash is one listening to music made of stretched string like a guitar and eating meat with fly eggs in it. Don't break those taboos.

Jack: And that's it. You don't become a witchage.

Cristina: Yes, that and don't become too strong.

Jack: Guess that's it for working Out?

Cristina: Yes. This creature seeks out to eat people and attempts to lure them away by being cunning. I don't know what the cunningness is.

Jack: Smart. Clever.

Cristina: No, I. I know that I don't know what they use to be cunning.

Jack: Oh.

Cristina: Like what? How do. Like, do they. If it's a child, the cunning would be like, here's candy. Come with me. I'm not gonna eat you.

Jack: So Ted Bundy was a wet judge, is he?

Cristina: Mmm. Oh, and some of these things, the true form of it is made out of ice and it's very strong and you can kill it by throwing it on campfire and you keep it there overnight and then it melts away and then you're done with the problem.

Jack: So they are ice monsters.

Cristina: Yeah. I guess you become an ice monster eventually, is what's happening. Not the true form, because the true form, I think, is the spirit creature thing.

Jack: So a wendingo and a witch are exactly the same thing? Essentially, yeah. Most likely regional derivatives of each other.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: But they all involve getting a person who turns into them.

Cristina: Yes. To turn into them. Yep.

Jack: Do they have rules for entry or anything of that nature? Do you have to, like, let them in?

Cristina: No, I think you just gotta be a really bad person. Or. I don't. The first one, I don't know. The second one, it sounds like becoming too strong.

Jack: This worked out too much. And now I'm a monster.

Cristina: Yeah. Oh. I guess the first one might be like being too greedy for some reason or it turns you into being too greedy. I'm not really sure what comes first.

Jack: Interesting.

Cristina: Are you greedy beforehand or not? I don't know. But being a weshog is considered a curse and a punishment. So I guess that is if you're bad, you're gonna be cursed and then you're gonna want to eat people. I guess some werewolf stories are like that too. It's just a curse put on you sometimes. Alright, we're running out of time. What do you think of all that information?

Jack: I think that's pretty interesting. I think that that holds makes a pretty good argument for a werewolf, vampire, Chupacabra, the Win Dingo and the Wetchudge to be kind of different people's tales of the same creature, whether it be different eras in time or different regions giving it different names, but referring to the same thing. It's sort of the God problem.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Like if you're Islamic, you say Allah. If you are Christian, you say Jehovah. But if I showed you a picture of the one true God both of, and you Some, for whatever reason, knew exactly what he looked like. Both groups would aim at the same thing. Yeah, I think it's that case.

Cristina: It could be.

Jack: I think that if everybody knew for a fact what you mean when you say vampire or wetchudge or werewolf or win dingo or chupacabra, and I brought up a single photo of a shapeshifter and you just happen to know for a fact what these creatures look like. You'd all aim at the one picture I'm holding and realize, oh, f***, we were talking about the same thing.

Cristina: Yeah. It's interesting that some shapeshifters like to be animals over human, though. The vampire is the only form that it's like. It prefers being human, I guess, in a way. Maybe the Wendigle too. I'm not sure.

Jack: Here's an interesting point that I'll make before we get out of here, which is the possibility that the intellectual level of the creature allows for a more complex transformation. So that if you can have the capacity of a person, you are a particularly intelligent shapeshifter. You can imitate a human.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Thus you turn into a vampire if you are more animalistic, but can sort of get there. Maybe all their goals is trying to get to the human where they could just blend in to the best creature to eat.

Cristina: Yes. The whole thing is to shapeshift into their meal so it can be easier for them to get closer to their meal.

Jack: Exactly.

Cristina: Except for the werewolf fails the most, I guess.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: But they are able to turn into a creature that's around their food.

Jack: Yes. So the idea is always the blend in. Not necessarily to imitate their food, but to blend into their environment so their food doesn't know they're there.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And in the case of a werewolf, they don't have the complexity to take this s*** because I guess you have to also behave the part.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So maybe you have the capacity to become a human, but you have to be able to imitate a human brain because we're assuming you're an anomalous being. Otherwise.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: You're understand, your quote, brain, unquote, is a different thing. And so you imitate a human perfectly, then you behave like a human. If you can imitate a superhuman, you are a vampire. There are way less of that than there are werewolves. Way more werewolves. Because you can do that easier because you're not fully human looking, you're more animalistic looking. It takes less effort than becoming a human. Yeah, well, becoming a human takes less effort than looking like a vampire. So it's really about capacity.

Cristina: What? Yes.

Jack: And like a wendingo and a wet church are way down the totem pole down there with like werewolves. Werewolves, yeah, yeah, they're down there with those creatures. Yeah, same thing. While the Chupacabra is the furthest thing, it's nothing like a human.

Cristina: No.

Jack: It's notably a weird creature.

Cristina: Yeah, it looks like it's trying to be too much creatures at once, kind of.

Jack: Then so does the werewolf.

Cristina: Looks like it's just being wants to be a werewolf, doesn't it?

Jack: Well, a werewolf isn't a f****** thing. A werewolf is a creature that looks like a combination of a wolf and a human.

Cristina: Oh, okay, okay, I see.

Jack: So the idea here would be that maybe when we're talking about shape shifters, we're not just talking about one thing, although we kind of are. We're talking about sort of the difference between a Chihuahua, a Rottweiler, a greyhound. Like maybe there are different kinds of shape shifters. They're all the same general thing. Like I can call every animal. I just said a dog. Yes, but they're also different kinds of dogs. Yes. Different species within the same branch thing or not different species, different races of the same species.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So maybe there are different races within the same species of shapeshifter, which allows for more complicated transformation in the future.

Cristina: I would like to go on to that. Hopefully we'll get there eventually. Of talking about the different species of shape shifts shifters.

Jack: Interesting, interesting.

Cristina: But just get, I would like to stick to the blood drinking though.

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Because there's a million shapeshifters. Of course, yeah.

Jack: There's even animals that drink blood.

Cristina: There's animals. Oh yeah.

Jack: There's normal animals that drink blood.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: That seems to be a trait which tells us there might be creatures that exist in nature that are already sort of connected.

Jack: Two shapeshifters. They might have a branching like DNA strand or something.

Cristina: Maybe. Fascinating, interesting. Okay.

Jack: But it'll. It'll be way easier when we finally capture this werewolf we've been hunting down and we can bring that f***** in, put him in a cage, probably next to the Reptilians, Cause f*** them, send that b**** to Mars. Now that we've built that whole study facility up there. So we'll send that to Mars with the rest of the f****** things we've got up there and we'll run some experiments and find out what we're gonna do with that. Well, we find out, maybe we can get it just to turn into something that doesn't look like a werewolf, but we're closing in. Yeah, closing in. The sub humans are out there doing their job.

Cristina: Awesome.

Jack: Anyways, if you guys enjoy this topic, there are millions of this sort on the show. You can find many episodes where we're discussing things of this nature, a bunch of different types of creat. Previous, more primitive versions of this conversation. We don't touch on the same things that we touched on here, but we kind of brush around the different subject matters, including the Chupacabra, shapeshifters and things of other things and shapes like reptilians and whatnot, even alien creatures who might potentially be the Chupacabra in the first place. To find those episodes, you guys can find them on the official website, greythoughts.info or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere you get your podcast.

Cristina: And you can reach us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. UsConvopod.

Jack: Yes. And remember to subscribe and rate the show. And if you feel so inclined, review the show.

Cristina: Let someone who might like the show know about it.

Jack: Yes, the power of word of mouth is the greatest power in the whole wide world. And that makes you a superhero, technically speaking.

Cristina: This has been the Just Conversation podcast. Podcast. Take nothing personal, and thanks for listening.

Jack: Bye.

Cristina: That's how they sounded like. Okay, you know how they sound like I've heard it. I don't know what's happening there. I mean, I guess that's what. Yes. I remember as a child listening to my parents.

Jack: And that's what it sounded like. Yeah, just gibberish. Like you didn't understand s***.

Cristina: Not that, like, if you're bored and you don't, you're not really paying attention, but you have to pay attention because maybe you did something bad or whatever, and they're just trying to explain something.

Jack: And you're like, somehow I doubt there was a moment in your life in which you did something bad.

Cristina: The Just Conversation podcast is hosted by Christina Collazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by greatthoughts.info art by 0lupo and logo by Seth McAllister with social media managed by Amber Black.

Rambling 109: Werewolf Science

The Just conversation Podcast, Werewolf, Werewolves #monsters, creatures, halloween, folklore, science, science fiction, stories, urban legend, terror, horror, fear, nature, 1800s, demons, possession, full moon

What is the science behind the stories of werewolves? What are the possible events that lead to their stories being shared over generations? Answers and theories to that on this episode.

Story:
After an episode where Calm Cristy elaborated on the intricate folklore and stories of Werewolves, Genocidal Jack decides to do an even deeper dive to see if the stories hold and scientific validity. With hopes of coming to a conclusion and maybe one day capturing their own pet werewolf, the duo unpack the origin of their stories. But what they discover about werewolves, native tribes and synthetic drugs throws their plans for a loop in ways they could not have predicted. All that and more on this episode of Just Conversation.

+Episode Details

Remember to leaves us a rating wherever you listen to podcast!

Topics Discussed

  • Werewolf Origin Story
  • Yellow Eyes
  • Monster in the Woods
  • Hauling Wolves
  • Tribal Native Outfits
  • Synthetic Drugs
  • Bath Salts
  • Rabies
  • Full Moon

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

Twitter - https://twitter.com/JustConvoPod

Facebook - https://facebook.com/justconvopod

Instagram - https://instagram.com/justconvopod


+Transcripts

Jack: Where do werewolves come from? Is there an example in nature of what a werewolf could be? Or maybe a werewolf is just a collection of ideas, possibilities, stories passed through generation. So what is a werewolf? The answer to that and more coming up on this episode of Just Conversation.

Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.

Jack: Going live in 5, 4.

Cristina: What does live mean?

Jack: Welcome to the Just Conversation podcast, the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas in childish ways. I'm your host, Jack.

Cristina: And I'm your host, Christina.

Jack: And if you haven't yet, remember to hit that subscribe button to get notified the second new episodes are released.

Cristina: And also, this show is most enjoyable with a listening partner to share opinions and ideas on topics we discuss.

Jack: Yes. So make sure to get some body pulled up nice and close and prepare to be en. Wokened. It's like the combination of enlightened and woke.

Cristina: Whoa. The next level.

Jack: The next level. It's because the woke movement is of dumbasses and the enlightened movement is of, like, self help and like, what is it called? The. The essential oils and crystals, people. And it's like, how are you supposed to communicate if you ban everything?

Cristina: I don't know. What's. Your facial expressions?

Jack: I don't even know, man. Because you're not allowed to say everything because everybody's emotions. The end. Just everybody's emotions. And it's like, all right, so if everybody's censoring themselves for everybody's emotions, everybody's being f. But you get offended by fake people because they're not being real, which is where all those. You know, if somebody's lying to you, you're being fake, then, you know, remove them from your life. But you put them there because they can't say anything. You don't let them say. So they have to be fake in the first place in order to communicate. But then you don't like them being fake because it's fake. And so you remove them from your life. Before long, you force everybody to censor themselves, but you don't like anybody because they're all being this fake person. And then you find yourself alone and kill yourself.

Cristina: And you're also depressed because you're always having to be fake.

Jack: Yes, you also. You're a hypocrite. You land as a hypocrite at the.

Cristina: End of it because, yeah, you're doing the same. You have to do the same thing for everyone else. If you expect everyone else to do the same that to you. And Yep.

Jack: Although I don't believe that. No, I don't believe any of them. Like practice what they preach.

Cristina: Well, next we'll have to censor emotions. That's the next thing.

Jack: I think the only thing. We should be censoring our emotions. There should be no f*** speech. There should be because we need to communicate. There should be emotion police because you shouldn't. The problem is we're living in a backwards society where people rely on others for how they feel. Like why can words affect you that way? What the f***? Just suck it up. Your emotions are your emotions, not anybody else's. Actions that affect people, that's a problem.

Cristina: And they, they need help. Everyone needs help.

Jack: Everybody needs help. That's crazy.

Cristina: I want to be emotion police. What do I have to do?

Jack: I don't know. There's. I mean any kind of police, I guess you just sign up, they give you a gun and a badge like a day later and they're like, go out there and kill as many as you can.

Cristina: Yeah. Anyone who shows emotion, I just shoot them.

Jack: Yeah. They're like, if they show emotion, they're getting hostile. And then you put them down.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: That's how you do it. They show emotion. The suspect is being hostile. Then you throw yourself on the floor. Officer down, I need backup. Then you pull out your gun, he's attacking and then you just shoot him a couple of times. And he was just Karen ing it out.

Cristina: Yeah. And I'm just being a soccer player.

Jack: A soccer player?

Cristina: Yeah. Just like, oh no, my ankle. Oh yeah.

Jack: Like when a soccer player barely gets touched. Like that guy who got tapped in the shoulder and then threw himself on the floor and pretended to like be super hurt.

Cristina: Yeah, those soccer moves, those are my favorite part of soccer. There's nothing better. It's so. That's even more so papyri than like any other sport. There's nothing, no drama like soccer drama.

Jack: Like it. No. They will pretend everything is the end of the world. Yes, it's so funny. But keeping on the theme of rage and anger and going hostile and cops shooting people for no reason because that's what cops do. And if you're going to be emotion police, you better be ready to shoot anybody emotional. Which means all the Karens are going to die.

Cristina: Sorry, Karen's.

Jack: They gotta. They're ruining the world anyways. As people get wokened, we can educate them on anger. Particularly like rage filled anger. No. All jokes aside, previously previously on this Conversation. You were telling us some wolf related folklore. Werewolves. Yes. And although we came to some interesting conclusions. That episode turned out unique. We landed. We stumbled on some things that I didn't think would connect, but they did.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: That was interesting. But that gave me the thought that, like, how much do we really, like, sure, we know folklore, but, like, can we make a real werewolf? Is that like, a thing? Could it. Could it be possible that there was always a real werewolf? Like, everything?

Cristina: But when you're saying make, are you talking about, like, scientists, like, Scooby Doo lab?

Jack: No, I'm saying, like, is it based on something true?

Cristina: Oh, okay.

Jack: I'm saying, like, in every circumstance, every bit of folklore is based. It's like a rumor or a stereotype. Like some part of what's happening is true somehow.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So where did a werewolf come from? There must be something in there that's truth. Something that isn't a lie.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Even when we think of some of the conclusions from that very episode, those have to be based on some manner, shape, or form of something that was real to begin with.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: And so I started to sort of look into it, trying to find out. And obviously it took me to situations from the past and situations from the present. Mixture of things sprinkled together create a pretty interesting painting of what a werewolf could have rooted from. There is a multitude of things. And one of the things I didn't know about werewolves is that they have yellow eyes.

Cristina: What?

Jack: Yeah. A lot of folklore about werewolves referenced yellow eyed beasts. Yeah. That they had almost like cat like, eye slit, but that their surrounding eye is very yellow. Like you could see bright yellow eyes.

Cristina: They look like cat eyes.

Jack: The pupil.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But the rest of the eye, the cornea, I guess, would be. Looks very, very yellow. And I couldn't zero in on anything in reality that for some reason would cause that. Except one very specific thing, which is actually pretty common. If you don't take care of yourself. And that thing is when you have an inflamed liver, when you have liver damage and it can't process things properly.

Cristina: It turns your eyes yellow.

Jack: Your eyes turn yellow.

Cristina: Oh, like the white part turns yellow or.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Okay. That's what.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: And you looked at pictures of it?

Jack: Yeah.

Cristina: Whoa. Does it look creepy looking?

Jack: It looks pretty normal.

Cristina: Oh, so you wouldn't, in the dead of night, see someone with those yellow eyes?

Jack: They wouldn't have, like, glowing eyes. Like, that's an exaggeration. I don't know why. They'd have, like, fluorescent eyes or some s***.

Cristina: Yeah. But just those eyes wouldn't creep you out.

Jack: Yes. And if you saw those Eyes in a figure that was more or less in shadow. You would more than anything, like in any other case, see the eyes, most likely.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: And when it comes to eyes darkness, there's the stereotype of the black person in the dark. One of the few things you can see from them is their teeth and their eyes, because those are white. In the case that a dark skinned person is hanging out in the woods, teeth and eyes are what you'd see if you see teeth and yellow eyes, but they're hard to make out, you have a monster. Especially considering that most of these things go back to racist old white people from old times. So they had slaves. Slaves would escape, they would run away. And it's not an empty everything around you. There's other people. So you're running through the woods and you stumble into somebody's yard or some s***, they look your way, they can see teeth and yellow eyes, and they're scared there's a creature running through the woods. Especially if they've never seen a black person before. You're already something that they don't understand. So you're some sort of. And this is not doing anything extreme. You're malnourished, you have very little water, you have liver damage for some reason. You have yellow eyes. As a result, you're running through the woods and all they can see are your teeth and your yellow eyes. You're just escaping slave masters.

Cristina: You're a werewolf.

Jack: You're werewolf. You're some feral creature to them.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And we're just talking. You don't even have to be black. You could have just been Hispanic or some s***. You could have been Native American. And you're just dark skin enough that you disappear into particular dark light or you're hard to make out.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: If we think of Native Americans and their tribal where these tribes in the times of white people first arriving here, they still had their tribal wear in large numbers. If you come to a new land and you're not familiar with and you're still, you still miss, you believe in mystical things and a lot of fantasy based things. And you arrive from, whether it be England or Spain or Italy or Portugal or any of these conquistador infested locations, and you believe in gods and angels and demons and creatures created by monsters, you arrive in the land, you know some of the natives, but they live in nature. And in the middle of the night, you see, they're dark skinned, they're tan at minimum, and it gets darker from there. They're running around doing their thing. Maybe they're doing some ritual or something. They're in their tribal uniform and they look not the way. They don't have the normal shape of anything you could identify. They maybe have a helmet on. The helmet has weird spikes. Maybe they have the skull of a dead creature on them. Okay, so a dead cow or something that they put that on top of, like a buffalo? Yeah, anything.

Cristina: You know, just looking at like a chattel or something of it.

Jack: Yes. You're seeing something alien as f***.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And it's just a Native American with tribal gear on. They're just doing what they do, but you don't understand what they do. And it's the middle of the night, you look, maybe you're wandering, maybe, who knows, you're delivering goods from one town to another. It takes you a couple of days, which means you got to camp out in the woods and you just happen to be close to a camp and they're just walking their normal route before you see something really weird and you're like, what the f*** is that? I saw a f****** werewolf. It did not. It looked humanoid. It looked like he had a bunch of excessive hair or feathers and horns and a head that was oversized and he was way bigger than. And it's because they were wearing an outfit that was huge and fluffy and odd looking.

Cristina: What? Yeah, that could be the werewolf.

Jack: So now we're building where the stories are coming from before anything gets confirmed. We just have. Oh, I've seen them. Even if I've. If I haven't been up close. I've seen shadows and things. I know what they are. Those are werewolves. Those are a human creed, although it hasn't been a wolf yet. But you come to the United States before the United States. You come to America and you are exploring and you see these Native Americans or captives, slaves running away. You are in America. We have wolves of many different kinds.

Cristina: Yeah, this.

Jack: And they live where? The woods, the forests. And where do the Native Americans live? The deserts, the woods and the forest. So you're either seeing them with coyotes or you're seeing them with wolves. Either way.

Cristina: So they're wearing a wolf.

Jack: They could be wearing a wolf. And they're probably at peace in nature with the wolves.

Cristina: Ah, you hear like a wolf howling and then you see them and you're.

Jack: Like, there's a harmony between them and you're confusing one with the other. You hear the wolf and then you see the guy in the outfit you can't identify. It looks like some alien. It looks like a creature you can't but it's an outfit in the dark, and you can't really make out that they're wearing an outfit. You're just like, I. You could even think that's f****** Bigfoot. You don't know. You saw some crazy s***, but you heard the wolf. Now you're making associations. Now you're connecting dots, but there's nothing happening. These are just circumstances that happen to be close to one another.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: They're from the forest. The wolves are from the forest. You're walking on route to make a delivery by the force. You hear one thing, you see the other, you think it's the same thing. I heard a wolf. I know what a wolf sounds like, but then I saw a creature, and I'm already thinking wolf. But then I see that. I associate wolf to it. It's a wolf, man.

Cristina: Yeah. I'm not gonna investigate that.

Jack: Exactly. I saw Wolfman. Yeah, I heard it, then I saw it.

Cristina: Yeah. Real life werewolves.

Jack: Interesting, right? So there's definitely a psychological factor that leads to these things. There's the way rumors get started and myths begin. Is always base and grounded. There's something real going on.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: That gets twisted and turned by superstitious people and by ideologies and by narratives sometimes intentionally twisted in order to, like, think of. What's his name? Shakespeare. He writes stories about situations that aren't real to warn people about possibilities. And so that probably happened a million times. Fairy tales, a lot of the time were told because you wanted to warn somebody.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: We had a guest, our last guest before this episode, Chris Rustic, who was telling us about the banana tree, who would rape people. But it's really just a story you come up with to scare kids out of going into the woods, but not scare them away from other people. You just don't want them to be anywhere they can't be be seen where something horrible could happen.

Cristina: So saying werewolves are in the woods could scare off the kids from entering the woods?

Jack: Yes. At the beginning, it began as somebody really saw something. They don't know what they saw, but that mental association happens. But then they start twisting it because, look, I don't know what the f*** I saw, and I don't want my kids going into the woods.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So we make a story about the werewolves we saw because we did see werewolves. I saw it. I was there. I ran into town immediately afterwards. I'm like, I can't make this delivery. There's a monster in the woods. It was half man, half wolf. They tell the whole town. They tell the Kids, how long before that becomes just a tale that that town knows of, that the forest is filled with werewolves?

Cristina: And it's just to protect the kids, though, or.

Jack: It didn't begin that way. It was warning. It was like somebody saw a f****** creature in there.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Somebody saw a werewolf, and we don't know what those werewolves do.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Jump forward. Many, many, many, many years. We're in Modern Era. 2012, Miami, Florida. Some guy is on the street eating another m***********'s face.

Cristina: That's not a zombie. That wasn't the first case of a zombie.

Jack: That was the first case of a zombie. But it came from a person having bath salts, which are just a synthetic drug imitating, usually a methamphetamine or heroin. These synthetic drugs that are made to imitate, whether it be heroin or it be methamphetamines or whatever, they have very specific behaviors that happen to people. They do things that these other drugs don't. And like. Wait, what?

Cristina: What is it?

Jack: Oh, what things do they do?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Well, there's a couple of effects that they have that they create. You know, primarily the bath salt, specifically, it is a unique compound of things. Right. For short, it's called mdpv. But usually when people take these things, they tend to cause the user to go hypermanic with psychosis, and then they become highly aggressive.

Cristina: But do they take it for that?

Jack: No.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: They think they're getting high as if it were heroin or as if it were methamphetamine.

Cristina: So is this something like they're lied to that what it is or.

Jack: No, they know what it is. They just think they're going to have that reaction.

Cristina: Okay. But. Okay.

Jack: Not everybody reacts the same way.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: It's not like everyone who takes bath salts behaves the same way.

Cristina: No.

Jack: But some people do take bath salts, and. Because it's not like a science.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: It's not down to a T. It's. Everybody makes it different, and it's always tainted one way or another. People are going to react in weird ways. Exactly. So with a lot of people having these sort of very aggressive behaviors come weird sporadic brain patterns and, like, irrational tendencies that they have. They scream and they throw themselves on the floor and roll over and they tear at their chest and they tear at their legs. They scratch themselves till they bleed. They kind of go crazy, essentially. In one of these cases we saw in Miami, the guy who ate the face, he was one of two. I think the other one was in California or something who attacked an individual and kind of started Just eating a f****** person while they were still alive.

Cristina: Were they? Did they sound like an animal? Like what did they sound like?

Jack: Their screams were f****** crazy. We can hear.

Cristina: We can hear it.

Jack: Yeah. So we can hear what this individual sounds like.

Cristina: Okay, that's gonna be horrifying. I know. Is that the guy?

Jack: Yes, that's a guy on Bath Sal.

Cristina: Wow. But did they do something?

Jack: No, they're just watching him trip out on bath salts.

Cristina: Stop it.

Jack: All right, all right, I'll stop the video. Sir.

Cristina: Stay down. Stay down.

Jack: You're going to hurt yourself. Okay, so that are the sounds that a person on bath salts makes?

Cristina: What? What? Hearing that in the middle of the night. Horrifying, definitely.

Jack: Hearing that in the middle of the night is a nightmare of sorts, especially if you don't know what is happening. Now, as we know, it's been associated with cannibalistic tendencies.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now, let's keep all of these things in mind as we go back in time to hearing weird things. And a man runs into the woods saying, I was on my delivery route and I saw a f******. I heard a howl. I saw a weird creature walking through the woods. It was a f****** werewolf.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: You know, it has yellow eyes. You saw teeth, you saw big build, which is probably just a f****** outfit of some sort. And you heard a howl. There's a whole mentality happening here.

Cristina: A picture is being made.

Jack: Yes. Now, you, in these times, don't have a doctor the way traditional doctors work. Now we're talking 1700s.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So a doctor is a bit different of a concept. A doctor is really an alchemist, a witch doctor. And what do they do? They grab random chemicals, put them together, trying to heal. Random s***.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Usually they give you something. It's not even research. They're just like this s*** with that s***. Yeah, here's some poison. Take it. You know, it'll cure you. People are getting f****** given. What was that thing that's inside of a thermometer?

Cristina: Mercury.

Jack: Mercury. People are getting mercury. F****** cure s***. Like, come on, bro.

Cristina: Yeah, yeah.

Jack: So, like, it wasn't the smartest of practices, but let's say you have liver problems. So you have yellow eyes. Your liver isn't functional the way it should be. You go to this witch doctor, the alchemist, and he's like, I got something for you. I'm gonna throw a couple of these things together, and you're gonna take this. It's random s***. It's random. What are the odds that once in a while there was an adverse reaction that behaved the way a chemical compound like bath salts does. You can actually get close to this type of behavior with mercury poisoning.

Cristina: Really?

Jack: You get fevers, you get hallucinations, you become manic, you become aggressive. And you can get that from mercury poisoning. You become very delusional. Okay, so what stops a witch doctor from giving somebody who has a failing liver without knowing that that's the case? Some concoction that works like bath salts. Person, for whatever reason, wanders the woods and now you have a yellow person freaking the out, running out at and.

Cristina: Trying to eat them, trying to bite their faces.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: Okay.

Jack: But you're alone, walking through the woods. It's dark. You get randomly attacked by this individual. You don't get to see them. You already just heard the stories. You heard the other guy and he was a. You were like, he's a p****. He does. He's just seeing. Yeah, Imma do the delivery and imma get the money he didn't earn. And now I'm walking through the woods and then boom. I got attacked by somebody, some s*** in the middle of the night. It kind of looked human, but I couldn't really tell because it was too quick. But I know it bit me, it scratched me and then it threw itself on the floor, started screaming and scratching itself, and then ran off into the woods. What the f*** did I just see? Yeah, it was the werewolf that guy was talking about.

Cristina: No, you're gonna become one. Or if you know that's part of the story, if that's part of the story already.

Jack: Not yet, but it's gonna be. Because the guy who spends his time in the woods is exposed to particular, that puts him in a unique kind of circumstance.

Cristina: Wait, which guy?

Jack: The quote, werewolf. Oh, okay, okay, so Native Americans, people wandering, making deliveries, slaves trying to escape captivity, running through the woods. Whatever the case might be, animals have parasites and have diseases. And if you get attacked by animals, there are certain kinds of diseases that are more prominent in creatures and others enter the most dangerous thing you could have gotten at that time. That now is one of the most easily curable things you could ever get. Rabies.

Cristina: Rabies? Oh, yeah.

Jack: Now, rabies, basic things, it's transmitted through saliva, usually through a bite. If you touch saliva with rabies, you're not gonna get it. So how do you get. You either need that saliva to fall into your mouth, to be ingested somehow, or to come in contact with your blood.

Cristina: Okay, like being bitten?

Jack: Like being bitten. Now, the virus is enclosed in the saliva. That's why it travels through it. It's sort of protected by the saliva itself. And it targets the nervous system and particular brain cells.

Cristina: And what does the rabies. What is it gonna do?

Jack: Well, the rabies is going to cause muscle spasm, aggressive behavior, psychosis, hallucinations, and very particularly foaming from the mouth.

Cristina: Foaming from the mouth?

Jack: Yep.

Cristina: That's pretty horrifying. If you see that in the woods and it bites you.

Jack: Yes.

Cristina: And then just a person biting you, you will get rabies.

Jack: It would be transmitted? Yes.

Cristina: Oh, so in the story, the guy who gets bitten gets rabies.

Jack: Yes. So if we follow the picture perfectly, there might be a Native American roaming the woods. He's where the wood, where the wolves are. The guy is first, guys walking through. He hears a wolf, sees the Native American, panics, doesn't make the delivery. Somewhere in that time, the Native American gets bitten himself by some creature in the woods. They don't have a vaccine. They catch rabies. The rabies causes a series of behaviors that makes their liver fail for whatever reason. Now you got yellow eyes. You still got your outfit on. You're savage. You're crazy. You're acting like a maniac. Your tribe leader creates a alchemic concoction, gives it to you, enhances the problems you're already dealing with. Now you are extra manic, extra crazy, extra psychotic. And you're attacking yourself. And anything you see, you get cast out. You're no longer part of the village. You're a danger.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: You're running through the woods. That other guy's coming through because that other previous delivery man is a b****. Imma do the job. He's paranoid. You run out, suddenly attack them in your big fluffy outfit because you haven't taken it off. Nobody could get close enough to you. You're danger.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So you still got it. You come out looking like some crazy creature they can't identify. You don't look human because of what you're wearing, but you kind of do look human because of your general shape, except you're not making sense. You're making crazy sounds like the ones we just heard.

Cristina: And you're foaming at the mouth.

Jack: You're foaming out of the mouth. You're crawling. So it's somewhere between animalistic and not. Your higher brain functions are shutting off because of the rabies. And the hallucination are coming on because of the rabies as well as because of the poisoning, probably from mercury. You have a ton of symptoms stacking up on top of each other. And then you go and you bite the guy on Top of your struggle, you're fighting him, you're fighting yourself. You bite him, you scratch him. He panics. He manages to get out in time. He leaves the package behind. He gets back to town, he's like, I was attacked by that thing.

Cristina: Oh, no.

Jack: There is a f****** werewolf out there. You don't know that. That bite has f***** you up.

Cristina: Yep. So.

Jack: So you have the bite. This guy's been living in the woods God knows how long, going crazy. He's gonna die soon anyways because he has rabies. Your s*** gets f***** up. You start developing a fever. The wound gets infected. You start getting started, starting to hallucinate, developing fevers and developing crazy behaviors. They're, like, associated with the thing. Yeah. Becoming a werewolf, they think, dude, you got whatever that guy got.

Cristina: Yeah. Then their solution to hunt down that guy.

Jack: No. Their solution is we gotta give you some s*** to cure you.

Cristina: Oh.

Jack: But in those times, you go to nat to the means, you know, back to alchemy. So you give this person something that basically accelerates their behavior and behaves like bath salts. On top of the fact that the rabies was already causing a series of symptoms that are very crazy. Animalistic psychosis, hallucination.

Cristina: So he goes through the same thing the other guy is going through times two.

Jack: Yeah, I guess literally exactly what the other guy's going through. You're going through the symptoms of rabies plus the symptoms of, essentially, bath salts put together. And they're watching you slowly become animalistic.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: You're becoming a beast to them.

Cristina: Didn't they stab you in the forehead to see if you're a werewolf?

Jack: No, probably. A lot of the times they probably just ended up killing these people. Now, there are a couple of things that could enhance this narrative. It depends on who gets it. There's actually a condition called hypotrichosis, which is the growth of excessive body hair. And it could grow not just everywhere on your body, but it includes your face.

Cristina: Yeah. So you could have seen people. Yeah. That look like. They kind of look like wolf people. Yeah. Yeah. Like what you'd imagine, like in a corny werewolf movie. They kind of look like that.

Jack: Yeah, you could have. Yeah, exactly. Like. Like wolf man or some s***.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So you could have this condition and go through all the same symptoms. I just said you actually don't even have to go through s***. You could have been attacked by a wolf and seen a man with this condition walking through the woods.

Cristina: Yeah. Well, even if he didn't attack you, just seeing this man through the woods Is probably frightening enough.

Jack: Yeah, fair enough. But in order to get the condition in which we see somebody get infected and then become, then we must consider that the person that they saw who had hypertrichosis was a person who also had rabies. So maybe this guy in the woods has rabies, has hypertrichosis. He doesn't. He looks deformed to you, Harry. Everywhere, you can't really tell. Runs out he has rabies. He's crazy. Comes in, he attacks you. He bites you, freaks out, runs off into the woods. You swear that was a wolf man. You go back home, then you're starting to freak out. You're starting to have symptoms. The local alchemist comes and he gives you your toxic poison that's gonna make you worse than that guy who only had rabies. But now you're freaking out quicker and sooner and behaving like a psychopath. And they swear you're becoming a werewolf. Yeah, yeah.

Cristina: Yes, Yes, I could see that.

Jack: Now, there are specific circumstances that are very interesting relative to the story. And in the case of the woods, the brightest nights in the woods are full moons, because the moon is reflecting the most light back down to earth. Meaning you can see things in the woods, most likely during a full moon than any other time of the month. Meaning anything you'd probably already see anyways if you could. Yeah, you're just way more aware of during a full moon. And if there's people normally roaming the woods but you can't see them, maybe they live in the woods.

Cristina: Yeah, you're more likely to see them in the full moon.

Jack: Yep. Full moon comes through and you're like, they're out only during the full moon. Not really. They're always there.

Cristina: That's where the whole full moon thing comes from as well. Transforming during a full moon.

Jack: Yes, yes. It's just that that one is entirely circumstantial that that's happening. So the we can assume that the first delivery guy probably was making that delivery close to ordering a full moon.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And then that's why he saw what he saw. He heard the wolf looking into the woods. He saw a figure roaming while the other guy had less visibility. The full moon is gone. The delivery still has to be made. It's been a couple of days. We need to get this out there. People are too scared. I'm the brave one. I'll go do it. But now it's way darker. You have way less moonlight.

Cristina: Then you get surprised.

Jack: Then you get surprised.

Cristina: Okay, now you have.

Jack: With less visibility. You don't know what's happening, how long.

Cristina: That you're sick for and when you're at your worst. And then it just happens to be a full moon when you're getting really bad.

Jack: Yeah. Not only, only that, the possibility that you run off before any of that. Like they don't see you become hairy, they see you run off into the same woods they're accusing people of being werewolves in. But that place already has wolves. If by any chance wolves are hungry, you roam into the woods. One, they're killing you. Second, they're not leaving just because they ate you. So people are gonna be like became a werewolf. I can hear him out there.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: So you ran off into the woods because you're crazy and irrational. Got eaten by wolves. But the number of wolves are still there.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So they're just associating the wolves they're seeing with oh, one of them is him.

Cristina: Yes. They're gonna think one of them are you unless they burn the body. I think they have to burn the body and then that wolf you will die too.

Jack: But that's way in the future after these stories become more prominent and everybody knows. So this is around the face that building solutions for the werewolf. We can't have them adding to the werewolves in the forest because it's going to make it impossible for us to travel if it's just packed with werewolves. So we got to dispose of anybody who's infected. Yes, that's where that solution comes in. Because it becomes a problem if everybody who goes out either never comes back. Which means they got killed or they became one of them.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And that also creates the circumstance where you are traveling in large caravans. So you build large groups, you no longer make deliveries as individuals. But wolves stay away from groups larger than their own because they don't want to be the prey. So when there's a ton of people together, the wolves aren't coming out to play. They're gonna f****** hide. Same thing happens with native tribes. They don't know these f****** white skinned people coming through. If it's just one of them and there's a f*** ton you, that's cool. But if they're roaming together with gun and f****** carriages, you're not f****** with that.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So in large groups they're safer. And then caravans form and they start traveling like that instead. So people only see werewolves when they cannot confirm that it is in fact not.

Cristina: So when you're alone, when you're.

Jack: Yeah, when there's either less of you.

Cristina: Or you're alone to actually investigate or yes.

Jack: When you're too scared to think clearly.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: That's when you're more likely to see a werewolf. And again, it's just an alignment of situations. A person with this condition could run outside, get rabies, behave like an animal. It could have been a slave that got away. They have dark skin in any of these cases. Any of them could have had liver damage, creating the yellow eyes. In the case of any dark skinned individual, whether it be the native or the slave, could have. You can see their teeth in the dark, even if their skin is dark. If it was a native, they have, using any of their tribal wear, they have large outfits that make them look disproportionate but still humanoid. There are many, many, many. And the woods equals wolves instinctively.

Cristina: Yeah. That's the biggest thing though for the werewolves is just you're surrounded by wolves.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, you're definitely surrounded by wolves. And that creates a pretty vivid picture for people. And the solutions that come as time goes by are just all a product of this. So we have individuals believing, just experimenting, essentially. You gotta try to cure them, you gotta try to kill them, you gotta try to. You do everything you can. This is where we bring in the scientists of the times. Which probably led to a lot of torture.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Because we think of like the Salem witch trials when the things they did there, this is no different, this is just a new, a new foe to them. You know, some new circuit circumstances. They got to learn to navigate.

Cristina: There were strange things we talked about that they do. Like the stabbing on the forehead.

Jack: Yep.

Cristina: We're cutting the skin to see if there's fur behind the skin.

Jack: That as well. Especially if it's somebody with a hypertrichosis. But they wouldn't have the fur inside, they would have it outside, which is.

Cristina: Yeah. So I don't think there'll be any tests. You. That person's a werewolf.

Jack: That person's a werewolf. Yeah.

Cristina: Test for that.

Jack: That person is definitely a werewolf. But this brings in another interesting point. This is unrelated to all those things, but related to the entire idea that there is a condition which makes a person believe that they are a shapeshifter. It's called clinical lisanthropy. And people with this condition, it's a psychological affliction which causes delusions of one having been or currently being a shapeshifter most commonly associated with werewolves.

Cristina: But that means that they also. There are some that have different animals in mind.

Jack: Yes. But now let's reassociate this with the story you hear about the Werewolf. Nobody thinks anything about it. The story flies through the town. Oh, he talking. Oh, no, that guy's crazy. He's always talking nonsense like that. You don't have to believe him. But then the second guy comes and he's like, I saw it. I was attacked by it. And then he, quote, turns into it, unquote.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now the fear is in the town. There's f****** werewolves out there. Two different people in two different circumstances have seen it. One of them was attacked by it. And somebody can develop this condition out of fear. The trauma alone could make them believe.

Cristina: That they're aware that they're werewolf.

Jack: So they'll think I either got bitten at some point and I don't know, or something along those lines. And then they start freaking out. And then they start showing weird behaviors that they think are what a werewolf would do, then causing other people to panic.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Now this leads us into a circumstance where we have somebody who is not transformed but claiming to be. Probably even claiming to have gotten bitten.

Cristina: Or maybe he drank that wolf water.

Jack: Well, that's a weird one. But you don't have a full moon yet, and that's usually when you see them. This person hasn't transformed and there hasn't been a full moon yet. Now you start making these sort of unnecessary associations of there hasn't been a full moon, they're bitten, they haven't turned, and that's the only time we see them. Do they only turn during full moons?

Cristina: Oh, okay, yeah.

Jack: You're starting to connect all the dots. So what? The people who catalog these things. Things, they start connecting random f****** dots. And it's like the first sighting during a moon during full moon. Second and third sightings during full moon. But the attack happened during a regular night, meaning the full moon turned them. And then they had. They were already this in the woods, just roaming aimlessly so they afterwards couldn't go back. They turned during the full moon, which is why we see more of them then. And then they're just out there stuck in this form.

Cristina: Okay, and then. But then why isn't this one like.

Jack: Because there's no full moon yet. That's where the panic starts. That's probably why they are more likely. We got to figure the salute, we got to solve the problem before the full moon. Or kill them.

Cristina: And then they end up killing.

Jack: Then they end up killing them. This is where the experimentation phases come in, where they end up stabbing somebody in the f****** head.

Cristina: Burning them alive.

Jack: Burning them alive and things of that nature.

Cristina: Where does the silver come from just a random torture tool that just got on, like, catch.

Jack: That's a weird one, right?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Now, in thinking about this whole shapeshifter thing, I started digging into that, trying to find out if there are any creatures in nature that shapeshift that have the ability to shapeshift. To my disappointment, there is no land creature that could do it. The closest thing is a frog that changes its color at will and some reptiles.

Cristina: Yeah, but what about butterflies? I mean, a caterpillar turning into a butterfly, that's pretty shape shifting.

Jack: No, I mean like actively changing its shape. Okay, that's your butterfly. Your butterfly, yeah. Saying like swamping from one to the other. And the only examples of this in nature are cephalopods, which include octopuses, squids, cuttlefish, and nautilus.

Cristina: So they're all very similar.

Jack: Yeah, they're all pretty, pretty similar. They imitate their environment. They change their body shape by aligning because they're boneless. They get kind of like assort themselves in weird ways and they all have the capacity to change color.

Cristina: That helps. I guess that helps.

Jack: Yeah. But there doesn't seem to be any examples of this in nature other than those things. There doesn't seem to be land versions of these creatures.

Cristina: There's no Boo. That's so sad.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's definitely problematic because there is the lacking of where the original idea of a person turning into it come from. Because the best we can do is assume somebody saw a wolf or heard a wolf and then saw a person.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: It makes more sense if he saw somebody with hypertrichosis. So you hear a wolf and then you see maybe a Native American wandering the woods. And you can tell them very easily, but they're covered in fur, including their face. And you're like, that's what I saw. Heard howling. That's a wolf, man. Whatever the f*** you know.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So I don't entirely have any other path there than that because there is no shape shifting in nature, per se.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But that brings us to an interesting detail though, which is at the end of your episode, we got to the conclusion that it's completely possible that a werewolf and a vampire are similar and a not just similar, but probably the same creature.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: We're talking about a creature that either drinks blood or eats people. In every one of these instances, the werewolf, it took us getting to the story of somebody seeing bodies at war that were drained of blood. The vampires are commonly discussed as showing up in the middle of nowhere and biting somebody.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: And the chupacabra very similarly goes and drains animals that it can of blood.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Doing like looking into this, the, the most interesting connecting line here was lysanthropy, which makes people believe that they are a shapeshifter. And that's fascinating because it's common most commonly for a werewolf.

Cristina: That's very strange that it's most commonly for a werewolf.

Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Most commonly that they believe they're like half dog or something. But at no moment does it prevent them from thinking they're becoming a different type of dog or creature. Four legged creature. They're turning into some other s***, maybe even a bat sometimes. Who knows what they think they're turning into. It's the fact that these people believe they're turning into something.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: And that's a common thread between all those things that I found particularly interesting that they could all root back to this condition and rumors of this condition.

Cristina: It could be all on this. Wait, do you mean like vampires and chupacabras could somehow.

Jack: If they. If it's not all real. But they are all so similar. It's either the regional differences of everything. If we think the difference between a Sasquatch, Bigfoot and the Yeti, it's like the same creature. You're just talking about different places.

Cristina: Yeah. You know, in some places though, instead of werewolf, there's like were hyena or were, you know, other creatures.

Jack: Yes, yes. I'm thinking that a werewolf to the west is a vampire to Europe the same way that a Chupacabra is to the southwest. I'm thinking it's regional and they're talking about the same thing every time. The stories were because of the culture.

Cristina: And the area depends on what animals around them.

Jack: Yes, that's a big influencer, what they're likely to see. Why is it that the west is so prominent with werewolves, but wolves are so prominent in the west?

Cristina: Because they're scared of wolves. Exactly.

Jack: It's in the area you are where the thing came to be. So there's a wolf man because you're surrounded by wolves. But in the south there are other creatures. You live by jungles, you live by deserts, you live in very specific circumstances. So you're gonna have some not wolf kind of dog like thing happening over there. Sometimes they describe it even being like a little dinosaur, which is probably just a f****** lizard of some sort.

Cristina: They describe it as a dinosaur?

Jack: Yeah, like a little dinosaur. The chupacara. That looks.

Cristina: Oh, okay. Yes, yes.

Jack: Yeah. So it's probably just some sort of lizard of which they have f*** tons.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: Because jungle's everywhere.

Cristina: Yeah. Whatever they're afraid of.

Jack: Whatever they're afraid of. Whatever's in your region is most likely what your big bad monster is made of.

Cristina: Yeah. And people like before, though, I think it helped them explain serial killers with werewolves. Of the idea of, like, how could a human murder all these people?

Jack: Well, that's actually interesting, the possibility that it's a way to tell a story without making people inherently evil. Because we have a tendency of thinking we're superior, then we have to keep that idea moving forward. So even if we might know it was a person, we don't want our kids to know what's a person. So we make up a story and we tell them the story to explain things away.

Cristina: And we might also believe these stories because we don't want to believe we could. We're capable of doing something like that.

Jack: Here's where the twist of information that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode comes in.

Cristina: In what?

Jack: Because somebody makes up the fairy tale.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: But how long before. How many generations go by before you don't know where it came from? And it's just a story of something that did happen. And the person who said it probably even had that in mind. They come. They just tell it like it's real.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Then a couple of generations down, nobody knows where it came from. They just know it's a story about a series of events. Not that it's a fairy tale. Then you have this creature is real because these many people experienced it at these times and it's somewhere. But you gotta be careful. But really it's just a bunch of psychopathic murderers or tribe sacrificing people or some s***.

Cristina: Yeah. That's crazy. What if though? Well, now I wonder if there was also, like, besides blaming murderers as werewolves, maybe cannibals.

Jack: I definitely think that's a big one. In times when total crucial survival was needed. Anybody who's starving. Like there was a lot of cannibalism back then.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So for survival sake.

Cristina: But once that's over and they're still eating, then.

Jack: But also not just that. Like you could just be killed by a pack of wolves.

Cristina: Yes.

Jack: You could just have been murdered by random pack of wolves while you're were making your f******. There was never anything. It was just wolves.

Cristina: But you find your dead body covered in fur or something.

Jack: Yeah. But people are like, you know, I can handle wolves, but can you handle a werewolf?

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: So it could also be a tactic of getting people's stupidity in check oh.

Cristina: But you know, people still believe in werewolves, right? There are people who believe it.

Jack: What, today?

Cristina: Yeah. Like there was recently a dog or I guess a dog, a creature that they couldn't tell what the creature was, so they needed to take a DNA test of it because they didn't know what it was. I have the picture of it if you want to look at it.

Jack: Sure.

Cristina: This is the creature. And some people thought it was a dire wolf. I guess that's like an ancient wolf.

Jack: Yes, that's a very old wolf.

Cristina: I guess, maybe. But the DNA results was that it was a deformed female gray wolf. Deformed.

Jack: That's interesting.

Cristina: Yeah. Because it has oddly long gray fur, oversized claws and extra large head, which made them. Like there's something weird about this dead dog thing.

Jack: Like it's not like the others.

Cristina: Yeah, yeah. So that's why they were really. That's why they needed the DNA test because it just. It's just something off about this dead creature.

Jack: Interesting, interesting. Is it like larger than usual?

Cristina: Yeah, it's larger than usual. So. But its legs were too short also to be a wolf or a dog. They described it as. So I don't know, like everything else was big except their legs. So it was a really deformed looking wolf dog thing.

Jack: Interesting. I wonder what could have caused this mutation that made it that way. Maybe it had like cerebral palsy or some form of genetic disorder that caused it to be. Did. Did they ever see it alive?

Cristina: I don't think so. I think they found the dead because.

Jack: There'S a bunch of disorders that cause physical defects as well as some of them also cause sort of mental defects. So they could have probably told whether this had some human type of. Really. Because there's animals who've had mental retardation and there's animals who've had cerebral palsy and autism and things of that nature. So they could have perhaps been able to tell if it was alive and they could have seen its behavior.

Cristina: Maybe they. It was alive and they got too scared and decided, you gotta kill it before it kills me.

Jack: People panic.

Cristina: Yeah. It could be a panicky situation.

Jack: Yeah. This is what I found related to werewolves and the origin story of what, where it could have come from or what might have perpetuated the folklore in the first place. Like where did these stories really originate? It. It was probably a collection of circumstances because the probability that anything of this nature is real seems unlikely. Yeah, it seems highly unlikely that a werewolf would be real. It's like all the evidence is painting Pointing towards a collection of events sort of lining up in the right order.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But not like any singular thing could have all of these things all together in one instance. I think it's just circumstantial evidence and superstitious people putting two and two together on top of mixtures of drugs and diseases and fears. Fears. Weird timing. A bunch of put together equals what we know as a werewolf.

Cristina: Yeah. The conclusion is that vampires are cooler than werewolves, though.

Jack: No. The conclusion is the only circumstance that could make a werewolf be real by any means is that it's not a werewolf. The only possible solution for there being a werewolf. It seems like a vampire and a chupacabra are a million times more likely than a werewolf could be. Because a chupacabra is not just considered a creature. It's considered a creature that was probably made in a lab. That seems way more likely. And a vampire could just be a cannibalistic human. Human. Which is also something else.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: But the werewolf circumstances. Iffy. It's hard to come across. And it seems like the only way that a werewolf could be is if the other two are also the same thing. If we have a bit of a shape shifter going on, then it could also assume the form of a wolf man or a wolf.

Cristina: But it's hard to prove anything about shape shifting.

Jack: It's hard to prove anything about shape shifting because there's zero evidence in that direction.

Cristina: No. Maybe they're just so sneaky about it.

Jack: How do you prove something is even shifted into a shape?

Cristina: Yeah. I don't know.

Jack: It just looks like something else. But. Yeah. So that's basically what's out there. That's. The possibilities are there's either no werewolf and an alignment of stars led to the stories being born.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: Or people trying to explain things away or warn people without scaring them about other people. Made up folklore and fairy tales.

Cristina: Yeah.

Jack: Or f****** shapeshifter. That's it. You're either a shapeshifter, You're a product of a fairy tale that somebody was just using to warn people, or a very specific alignment of events, including drugs and diseases and too many things. Yeah. That one's the least likely is the possibility that it's real.

Cristina: Yeah. Yeah.

Jack: A vampire in a chupacabra. A million times more real than the possibility of a werewolf. A werewolf is just very unlikely.

Cristina: Mm.

Jack: So that's pretty much what it is. There is no chance that's rooming. Anyways, if you guys enjoyed this, if you guys agree with that, that leave us a Message.

Cristina: If you don't leave us a message.

Jack: Yeah, either way, just tell us what you think about these things. Tell us what you think about werewolves and is. Is it a vampire? Chupacabra? Shapeshifty thingy? Is it an alignment of the stars? Is it a story, a fairy tale? Or do you believe maybe there are werewolves? And I'm up. So let us know. Anyways, you can find the podcast on the official website greatthoughts.info on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and anywhere you get your podcast.

Cristina: And you can reach us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Tick Tock at just Convopod.

Jack: Yes, and remember to subscribe and rate the show. Give us some stars of any amount. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 30, 50, 100. 150 f****** stars. However many stars you think we deserve. And review if you feel something so inclined.

Cristina: And let someone who might like this show know about it.

Jack: Yes, the power of word of mouth. You guys know. Tell people about the show. Tell them, hey, we just proved your crazy theory about werewolves wrong. Bob, you're talking about that werewolf in the woods. You're an idiot. Listen to this show. That proves you wrong. Or Bob, these people say it not, but you got photographic proof of a werewolf. Send it to them. Please do that, Bob.

Cristina: Send us the videos. This has been the Just Conversation podcast. Take nothing personal and thanks for listening.

Jack: Bye.

Cristina: Okay, I'm hanged. So I died to this person.

Jack: But then, oh my God.

Cristina: Come back to listen to a newer episode. You're like, oh my God, she's still alive.

Jack: Hans, bro. Like that.

Cristina: Shocking though, didn't they? Well, it was in one movie I think where they thought his girl died. But then she wasn't dead. She just forgot her memories. But then bro, they do this. Converted her from the bad guy to the good guy anyway. And I don't even know if she gained her memories back.

Jack: I don't. Look, I don't even understand.

Cristina: She a new person who just. I don't fell in love with him.

Jack: Understand why this works. Wasn't a in movie reveal. They showed us this. What could be left inside that movie that's gonna blow our Brian.

Cristina: He's gonna come back.

Jack: He's gonna come back and it isn't even gonna be like his brother look alike. We're just gonna have Paul Walker in the movie. I like. What else could possibly happen?

Cristina: What is the point of showing us that? I don't know. And then it's crazy. Good morning.

Jack: Dub a dub. Dub dub.

Cristina: Good morning. The Just Conversation podcast is hosted by Christina Colazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by Great Thoughts info, art by Zero Lupo and logo by Seth McAllister with social media managed by Amber Black.

Rambling 108: Werewolf Folklore

Werewolf, THe Just Conversation Podcast, Horror, Scary, Vampire, Mytical

What are the real stories about werewolves and where do they come from? Werewolves and the Folklore surrounding their mystery is discussed.

Story:
The duo begins a new case about werewolves and they begin with the folklore and tales surrounding them. From origins to methods of disposing of them. But diving deep takes the duo down rabbits holes they never expected to go. The connections they discover reveal the truth of werewolves rests on a different mythological creature entirely. The question is, how many other creatures are just this one? All that and more on this episode of Just Conversation.

+Episode Details

Remember to leaves us a rating wherever you listen to podcast!

Topics Discussed

  • Abilities of the 7th Son
  • Werewolf Features
  • Talking Dogs
  • Becoming a Werewolf
  • Curing Werewolf Syndrome
  • Werewolf War
  • Killing Werewolves
  • White Man’s Folklore
  • Vampire Werewolves
  • Scolding Werewolves
  • Adrenochrome
  • Shapeshifters
  • Chupacabra

Our Links:

Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast

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