Rambling 277: The Winchester House
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Who was Sarah Lockwood? What is the Winchester House? And what purpose does any of this serve? The duo go back to investigating individual cases and crack open the case of the Winchester House. A mysterious and strange mansion with odd circumstances surrounding it. The discovery made turns out to be more relevant than could have ever been anticipated!!
+Episode Details
Topics Discussed:
- Sarah Lockwood
- Geometric Patterns
- Mazes
- William Winchester
- The Seance Room
Official Website - https://greythoughts.info/podcast
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+Transcript
Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.
Jack: Going live in 5, 4.
Cristina: What does live mean?
Jack: Welcome to the Rambling Podcast. I'm your host, Jack.
Cristina: And I'm your host, Christina.
Jack: And this is the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas. How have you been?
Cristina: Hot.
Jack: It's been hot. You know, the Earth has been hotter. Hotter than usual. Too Hot. It's been painfully hot, I would say.
Cristina: Painfully hot.
Jack: Yeah. It's been global warming, except not because it's climate change. And some places are technically colder. Okay, so rephrasing it to climate change. We're changing the climate. Except we're not, because the climate is always changing. This has nothing to do with anything. I am just ranting. All right, anyways, so I have some images for you to look at, and I want you to just describe what you're seeing in these images, okay?
Cristina: Really?
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: This is just how we're going to start it.
Jack: This is just how we're going to start it. I want you to look at some image of cosas.
Cristina: If I don't know what I'm looking.
Jack: At, that's totally fine. Go ahead and describe to everybody what you're looking at.
Cristina: A big house.
Jack: Describe this big house.
Cristina: It kind of looks like a puzzle type of house because it's all over the place.
Jack: Interesting.
Cristina: So just boxes here and there. Look at that one down there. Unless. Is that a car? No, that's a house.
Jack: No, this is. That's a room. Yeah. No, this is big. You're looking at something here.
Cristina: It looks like there's a maze in the house. Is it the Resident Evil mansion?
Jack: Interesting. Okay, what else do you see? Point other things out.
Cristina: Palm trees. Are those palm trees? I think that's what palm trees look like.
Jack: Yeah, that's a type of palm tree, for sure.
Cristina: The house is yellow with red. Red tops.
Jack: Okay.
Cristina: I guess. Except some of them are flat. I don't know. It looks like multiple buildings that are just connected to each other with littler buildings.
Jack: Okay, interesting. Interesting, yes.
Cristina: Something like. I don't know, what's the original house there? And maybe like it was just one house, and then they just added onto it over the years.
Jack: Fascinating. Okay. Okay, keep talking. I like where you're going with this.
Cristina: They have a huge. I don't know, it looks. It's huge. It's huge.
Jack: It is f****** huge. But I think you could also probably identify the original house in there.
Cristina: You think so?
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: Is it the first. The little first section? You'd guess it would be that.
Jack: The bigger first section, right?
Cristina: Yeah, yeah. Although, like, that looks like a complete house right back there. Like, there's the first. The second one. You see that little box there?
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: That looks like added on stuff, but all the way back there. Looks like a mansion itself.
Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Cristina: But. But it's connected though.
Jack: So. Good guess. Is actually this part and that part that were original.
Cristina: Oh, okay. What?
Jack: That's really on the nose. We'll scroll down to the next one, which is actually a different angle of it.
Cristina: Oh, my gosh. It's a bigger mess than you can see. Oh, my gosh.
Jack: The original.
Cristina: That's the original.
Jack: And you can see the back house.
Cristina: Oh, what is this, though? It's huge. It's like five blocks, eight blocks.
Jack: What is it huge? It is one of the largest mansions in the world.
Cristina: Where is it?
Jack: We'll get to that.
Cristina: It has palm trees, but then it has regular trees behind it. So the palm trees were taken there. Like it's not a natural palm tree or. It is.
Jack: No. Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. On point. On point. Yes, it is.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Interesting, interesting. Okay, now let's take a look inside. What do you see here? Huh?
Cristina: I don't know. We're looking at a basement. I don't know.
Jack: Right, right. Tell me more about the stairs.
Cristina: Is there something off with the stairs? I don't know.
Jack: You don't see something off about the stairs?
Cristina: I'm not sure. It's the. What's above the stairs? Looks odd. Like we're not. I don't know. No, I don't know. Because that's just doors in the bottom. Right?
Jack: In the bottom?
Cristina: Yeah. Is that not the bottom? The top of the picture is the bottom of the stairs?
Jack: No, that's the top of the stairs.
Cristina: That's the top of the stairs.
Jack: Yeah. You can see because this is a little lift at the bottom of the stairs with the shadow underneath it. Oh.
Cristina: Because it looks like.
Jack: Yeah, no, you're right.
Cristina: It looks weird. It looks like a door. Like you're entering the room.
Jack: Yeah, it looks like a staircase going into a door. But that's the ceiling.
Cristina: That's the ceiling.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: But then how would you. So it's just a hole up there.
Jack: That's not even a door. It just looks like a door.
Cristina: It just looks like a door.
Jack: Yeah, the staircase goes nowhere. That staircase literally has no direction.
Cristina: What is it up there that we're looking at?
Jack: A ceiling.
Cristina: What?
Jack: Designed to look like a door. This is a ceiling.
Cristina: Why?
Jack: Okay, here is another Image. What do you see?
Cristina: Another stairs. We're in a. This is some kind of maze. This has to be some kind of maze. I don't understand.
Jack: What are you looking at?
Cristina: It says exit and the stairs. And the stairs are going up to like nothing or a teeny tiny room. I don't know. Is it a tiny room up there?
Jack: Right. And once before the stairs going up.
Cristina: More stairs going up but the other direction.
Jack: So stairs going down.
Cristina: Oh, that stairs going down.
Jack: See, it's going down, its stairs going down, then stairs going up.
Cristina: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess.
Jack: Yeah, that stairs going down, then up again.
Cristina: RV And I don't understand why is there so many stairs? Because it looks like other stairs going up right in the corner. Yeah.
Jack: Stairs up, up and then stairs down. Not sure why.
Cristina: Why? And then is there anything else happening there? I don't know. Is that a window? That's a window, yeah.
Jack: Last one. What do you see in this one?
Cristina: I see a room that's has nothing in it. It has a window that's way small and long. A closet that looks.
Jack: That's not a window, that's a door.
Cristina: Window that up there, that's a window.
Jack: What up. We're here.
Cristina: Yeah, I'm not talking about the door yet.
Jack: No, it's not a window either. Or I guess. Oh, fair enough. Yes, that's a window. That's a window into another room.
Cristina: Oh my gosh. Because. Okay. And the door that's open looks like there's another door behind it. But also it's super high up from the floor.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: Like it would be really annoying to get out of the room. And the room is empty for some reason.
Jack: Yes. What else?
Cristina: I'm not sure. Hangers on the wall and I don't know. The closet looks like a normal closet. I don't know. Plus that's just another door to another room.
Jack: An average everyday closet.
Cristina: Yeah, maybe.
Jack: Okay, describe to me what you've just seen. Put it all together in your mind. What's going on?
Cristina: It's. I don't know, someone with too much money and too much time making a maze. It looks like an indoor maze. It looks like Willy Wonka's mansion. It looks like, I don't know, Hogwarts. I don't know what's happening.
Jack: I'm gonna go into more detail. So you saw a maze. How was the maze built? Where does the maze come from? What can you extrapolate just by looking at it?
Cristina: Does it come from now where does it come from?
Jack: Fair enough. But like what what is fresh in your memory about what you just saw? What points stand out? If you were to summarize, having looked at these images, what are your bullet points?
Cristina: Okay. Besides that. It's some type of maze. It was made over time.
Jack: It was made over time because of.
Cristina: All the new parts to it.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: Has made it more complicated. Which is probably why there's some stairs that go to no thing and some that go to, I don't know.
Jack: Interesting.
Cristina: Then there's. There's a lot upstairs going nowhere. And for some reason, that one, that last room with a really high upstair step to get out of it. Like why?
Jack: Why Fact.
Cristina: Does someone actually live there? I don't feel like. Like you. There's too much money that you have to be living there.
Jack: Somebody doesn't live there anymore.
Cristina: They were living in there.
Jack: They were living in.
Cristina: Making this mess.
Jack: Yes. So let me begin telling you about what you just saw.
Cristina: Good. What?
Jack: We'll begin at part one. The widow. So let me tell you about this widow Rich.
Cristina: Widow Rich.
Jack: A widow. Her name is Sarah. She goes by Sally. Her last name is Lockwood. And Sarah Lockwood was named after her grandma, you know.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: Is that important?
Jack: I'm telling you about Sarah.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Anything I tell you matters because I'm telling you. So eat it. Whether or not you think it matters, because I don't care if you think it matters.
Cristina: It does matter though.
Jack: It's information.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: About Sarah.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Lockwood.
Cristina: All right.
Jack: Yeah. And Sarah Lockwood was a widow. Sarah Lockwood became a widow eventually because of the situation that happened. Sarah was born in 1839 in New Haven, Connecticut. The Old west, you know, the American Old West. And Sarah married when she was 62 years. That's not 62 years. Crazy. She was in her 30s. 1862 is what I meant to say. How old was she too? I don't know. Let's find out. She was born in 1839 and she got married in 1862. So she was 30? No, she was 20. What?
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: She got married at 21. She gave birth to a still, but not a stillborn daughter, but a daughter that died within a year because the life expectancy of the time at that point. Okay, so she had a baby and her baby didn't make it. Sarah's baby had died. And it haunts her because it haunts her psyche because she's traumatized. Question mark.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And so her husband had done died. He dropped dead. I guess I should be doing this with a western accent because I'm talking about the old West.
Cristina: How long after the baby?
Jack: I don't know necessarily when she had that baby to begin with. That's just more of a detail about her life. Telling you about Sarah, telling you details.
Cristina: About what was her job. Tell me about something about her, though.
Jack: I'm telling you things about her. Just let me keep revealing things. I told you the details that seem to be relevant to some degree.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And Sarah, she, like I told you, been done married. And eventually her husband died. And her husband died in 1881. It wasn't good times for Sarah when he died. Her husband. What the h*** was her husband's name? I done forgot her husband's name. Oh, his name was William.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: She was married to a saw William. He wasn't a sir. I'm just saying that because I was cool and fancy. Yeah, he was a Mr. William. Why the did we adopt sirness here in the United States of America?
Cristina: What was his last name?
Jack: His last name is the right question. Finally. His last name is. It's interesting because I figured you would ask his last name. I don't know why I thought you would ask specifically his last name, but I know you would. It's Winchester. His last name is Winchester. Which makes Sarah Lockwood's second last name and thus her entire full name. Sarah Lockwood Winchester. And as you know, the Winchester name has some interesting ideas behind it that have been exploited over time.
Cristina: Gun. There's a gun, right?
Jack: There is a Winchester gun. Yeah, there are. It's a revolver. A Winchester.45 Magnum revolver. The best.45 Magnum revolver.
Cristina: Does that somehow relate to the guy? He is his family. Just his family.
Jack: So this is part of the era where people were named after what they did for a living. And Winchester was the name of the company he worked for. He got his name for working for the Winchester Repeating Arms Company.
Cristina: Oh, okay. And what do they do?
Jack: They sell repeating rifles.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: It's the Winchester Repeating Arms Company. I don't know what more specific they tried really to be super absurdly specific with that. Winchester, which is the name of the people. Assuming there was a guy actually named Winchester that's unrelated to this new guy named Winchester because of how norms work back then. No, he's one of them Winchester boys. And that really just meant you worked for the Winchester Company. Okay, now Winchester boys last name. But back then it wasn't. And yeah, so he worked for that place.
Cristina: Did he die from a Winchester gun? How did he die?
Jack: Who cares? He died. He died anyways. When he died, he left his widow, Sarah, with quite the fortune. A lot. A lot of money. So much money. Because he had a pretty big chunk of that company. Was there a while. He's one of the original founders money.
Cristina: So then he wasn't named because of what he does.
Jack: No, he wasn't. He was. He was. He wasn't one of the original founders. I have no idea. He was some guy in the company. But he had a lot of money. And no, he wasn't an original founder's lie.
Cristina: Okay?
Jack: And he gave her all that money when he died. And so now Sarah Lockwood Winchester is loaded and she gets arthritis.
Cristina: She joins the call.
Jack: And when she gets arthritis, she goes to her doctor. That's how she knows she's got arthritis. You're developing arthritis. You're becoming an old hang. And she was like, yeah, I'm in my 40s. I'm almost dead.
Cristina: She hasn't had any more children.
Jack: No, she's a widow. You don't do that. You stay widow and sad forever. That's your job.
Cristina: I mean, but like, they only tried once.
Jack: Yeah. And then failed. So she is a failure. In her womb is barren and she's a owl. Because that's how it works. It's them times. Except he died and now she's a rich barren.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: You know, she's still a barren, but a lot of money landed on her lap. So she could be a rich baron b****.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Although she was probably totally fine having the kid, but, you know, also child. But she didn't not. She wasn't barren.
Cristina: So she never has children that could.
Jack: Die after she gave.
Cristina: Exactly.
Jack: She wasn't bad.
Cristina: Like it's possible that she could have had.
Jack: Probably treating her like she was barren. Anyways. Her kid.
Cristina: Okay, so she garbage has no children.
Jack: She has no children.
Cristina: Does she adopt children?
Jack: She does not. Why does it matter?
Cristina: I don't know.
Jack: Why are you asking about her children? What do her children matter to you?
Cristina: I don't know.
Jack: I told you. She had a kid and her kid died.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Why does she need more kids?
Cristina: How does that relate to any.
Jack: She has a dead baby. How does any of this relate to each other?
Cristina: Yes, exactly.
Jack: And so now she got arthritis. She got arthritis. And the doctor is like, you got arthritis? And she's like, dang.
Cristina: She has so much money. She gets a new hand.
Jack: She gets a new hand. So the doctor is then like, look, man, you're out here living in New Haven, Connecticut, you stupid barren. You could go somewhere where the weather isn't so cold and frigid like you, you stupid, barren.
Cristina: So tell her to go to Californ.
Jack: Yeah. They basically say, go somewhere warm so that arthritis doesn't make your fingers represent your soul because you're a stupid barren b****.
Cristina: Did it help her?
Jack: I have no clue. But she does decide at the. At the warm young age. 80s of 42.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: So then go.
Cristina: I mean, I guess that's still pretty old back then.
Jack: Yeah. And then she goes. She decides that she's gonna go in in 1885.
Cristina: She buys a mansion.
Jack: She goes and she. She goes to California and she brings her three remaining sisters. She had more, but they dead because life expectancy in the 1800s isn't fun.
Cristina: And do they have children or are they, well, parents?
Jack: They don't have children yet.
Cristina: Oh, I don't know. Is that important? Okay.
Jack: I don't know. Now, you know what? You've. You've been asking questions. I gave you answers.
Cristina: How old are they?
Jack: Younger than her. Okay, now that's. That's. That's Sarah.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Told you some details about Sarah.
Cristina: About Sarah, though.
Jack: Now we're gonna go back to what you saw. I told you about Sarah.
Cristina: Yeah. Okay.
Jack: Part two. The house.
Cristina: It's haunted. I don't know.
Jack: This house is located in what state?
Cristina: Cali.
Jack: Cali. This house belonged to a man named John Hamm. It's funny that this guy's named John Hamm because there's a photo of a man from the 1800s who looks identical to John Hamm that people say John Hamm is a vampire because of this reason.
Cristina: Okay. But this is not that photo that you're talking about.
Jack: No. I would be very confused. This is also that man.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: There's no photo of this Jon Hamm. There's nothing on this John Ham.
Cristina: Okay. This Jon Hamm owns the house.
Jack: He owns a house.
Cristina: He's still alive at this point, I.
Jack: Guess, where he owns. I mean, now.
Cristina: I mean, when they went there to get the house with him.
Jack: Yeah, yeah. He was alive. He sold them the house.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Jon Hamm had a villa with a back house.
Cristina: Okay. And that's what they got.
Jack: That's what they got. They bought a villa with the back house.
Cristina: Interesting.
Jack: That's great. It's a guest house. And there were three, four of them now because her and her three sisters or whatever.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And now let me tell you about some interesting details about this house. So it's on 40. What was it? 440 acres or some s*** like that Ridiculous land.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: As you saw in the image.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Which Was mostly empty, as you saw by the main two buildings. It's a lot of land, a lot of empty. There were actually forests going through there.
Cristina: Like, how long would it take for the main house to travel to the back house?
Jack: Oh, man. I mean, you saw. Yeah, it was a pretty thick. Like a forest was pretty thick. You were looking at like a minute and a half walk in a straight line from one end to the other. If this is a house with walls and turns, it could take you 5, 10 minutes to traverse one end to the house of the other in a non stop stride in your own house. I'll be there in 10 minutes.
Cristina: Yeah, well, that's too much.
Jack: Yeah, but it didn't begin like that. Again, it was a H, the house. You saw the big chunk, which must have had like what, seven rooms? She was filthy rich. She got her husband's whole estate. Why not? And the back house. So other people came.
Cristina: Which is still a pretty big house. That's a pretty big back house and house. Not including everything that was added.
Jack: Yes, to it.
Cristina: It's what was added just makes no sense. And I don't understand.
Jack: While living at this house, there were a couple of instances that have been left on public record about Sarah's interactions. Sarah Winchester, the widow of William Winchester, who worked for the Winchester Repeating Arms Company.
Cristina: Yes. Yes.
Jack: There have been actual notices of this.
Cristina: Lady in weirdo public records.
Jack: Not her being a weird. Well, fair enough. Possibly. It depends. Depends what you interpret of her being a weirdo. First, there were a couple of calls to the authority, to the authorities of the area about the house, saying there's an intruder on the premises.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: This happened over and over and over where one of these ladies would run all the way to the authorities to.
Cristina: Say that there's someone at their house.
Jack: Tell them that there's somebody intruding on their property and has been lurking in their property.
Cristina: Is it John Ham?
Jack: It is not John Ham.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: It'd be weird if it was. John the vampire. John Ham sells people the house and reclaims it through drinking their blood.
Cristina: Yes. Interesting. No, that's not it. Okay.
Jack: No. And in the time, the exact record claims that there was a man with the wheelbarrow pushing something through the property.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: This happened more than 20 different occasions. Guy with a guy with a wheelbarrow on their property. Always taking something in the same direction.
Cristina: It's a ghost.
Jack: They're too scared to go over there and look.
Cristina: It's a ghost.
Jack: Why is it a ghost?
Cristina: It's. He's doing the Same exact thing.
Jack: It's an echo, right? It's an actual ghost?
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: It's not like a jinn or like a spirit? No, it's a ghost. An echo ghost of something that happened.
Cristina: In the past, repeating itself over and over. Yeah. Is that what you think too?
Jack: I am also thinking the same thing. I think that man is an echo.
Cristina: Is there more echoes, I guess in the house or around the house?
Jack: This is now where you've asked the most important question. Because this episode is a question of what is in this house. Because I think summer ghosts, echoes of a previous time or future time, ripples as we've established in the past, make sense with math, makes it to quantum physics, most of philosophy. And how we think of an echo in general and what we think of a ghost. So an echo and a ghost are in theory the same, except a ripple through time. Us seeing a moment.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Okay. There are instances which seem to be identical and repeating and continuous. Like the man with the wheelbarrow.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: There are instances that seem fully aware happening in this house. I am going to move into the future now and tell you about this house, current day, without further context so that you know how deep it's about to get. This house is current day a tourist attraction. People go to this house because of how f***** this house is.
Cristina: So it has nothing to do with the size of the house. Pretty crazy.
Jack: All of the above.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: It's not this or that. It's this and that.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: It's all of the above. The house is a current day tourist attraction. It's called Winchester House. And the house brings in money purely based on the cryptic nature of its design and the fact that people, when they go there, do come across the echoes that seem to exist. What's in the public record and what's in the current day? Echoes only share the echoes. The current day events do not share anything that doesn't fit a description we would call an echo. But they do have other instances that people would have called ghosts back then.
Cristina: Like what?
Jack: We're going to get to that.
Cristina: But okay, okay.
Jack: That is an important distinction to be made there.
Cristina: Ghosts versus echoes.
Jack: They're definitely ghosts. Which brings up what can cause the ripples in. Because this is a different problem. Right. We're talking space, time, we're talking science. We know that in New Jersey there is the place Paradise Falls and Clemson Road by Clinton Road. And that area.
Cristina: It's weird.
Jack: Yes. But what causes an area like that to happen? We know that there's even thin places there.
Cristina: Yeah. There's just a lot of crap happening there.
Jack: Yes, but this is a space time phenomenon, isn't it? Yes, like a fold in space or something that's allowing things from many, specifically in Clinton Road is excessive. It's things from many different times. The future in the past kind of intersecting here. It's the. The hills. What is it? The tall fields in the tall grass.
Cristina: Oh yeah.
Jack: We're like the future. The past, the present, the now is all one.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And so you see impossibly ancient looking things and anomalous things. So futuristic. They might be magic.
Cristina: All happening aliens, but it might not be at all.
Jack: Yeah, because we're saying what, demons, ghosts and aliens all exist in the same place? Get the f*** out of here.
Cristina: No, that's weird.
Jack: No, it's weird.
Cristina: That's what's happening in this house.
Jack: So let's dive deeper into the house. I'll tell you some things that happen with the structure of the house.
Cristina: Yes, that's really. I'm mostly dying to know why.
Jack: There is a 44 staircase that only goes up 10ft inside of this house.
Cristina: What's going on?
Jack: Why it continues at a tiny, super gradual slope. Super gradual. Mad stairs. Mad stairs. Mad stairs. Mad stairs to only go up 10ft.
Cristina: Who did this? Was it her? Is she part of this? Or this is someone else?
Jack: There are stained glass windows hanging inside of rooms, not in walls. Many stained glass windows, many, an absurd amount, have spiderweb designs.
Cristina: Spiderweb designs.
Jack: Many windows have Shakespeare quotes.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: There are many doors that open to a dead end wall.
Cristina: Weird.
Jack: There are many doors that open to another door.
Cristina: Okay, I think we saw a little bit of that.
Jack: There are many doors that open to a dead end hallway. There are many doors that lead through mazing hallways that go nowhere.
Cristina: Why?
Jack: There are hidden passages hidden beneath almost all the walls.
Cristina: That's weird.
Jack: And they don't connect to each other directly. Some connect to some, some don't.
Cristina: That's awful. Who will do this?
Jack: There are hidden passages underneath the floorboards.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Some floors have windows in them.
Cristina: Why?
Jack: There are many chimneys in this house.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Kind of makes sense considering its size.
Cristina: Yeah, it's humongous. And find out there's only one door.
Jack: In what the number 13 shows up over and over and over and over. Many, most. Almost all staircases within this size range have about 13 steps. If it could be 9, if it could be 10, if it could be 11, if it could be 14, 15 or 16. It's usually 13 at different sizes.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Stained glass windows constructed almost Majority. And his house is surrounded by stained glass windows of 13 panes.
Cristina: You have any of these as photos though, of the stainless stained glass windows? Stained glass windows. That'd be cool to look at. Are you weird?
Jack: There's a bunch of weird s*** going on here.
Cristina: It's not sounds weird.
Jack: It's not weird. These are things you would only notice by looking at detail. We're talking numbers, we're talking shape shapes. You see webs in places. You see odd shapes. You see the panels are made of add up to 13.
Cristina: That's pretty nice, actually. Not weird.
Jack: It's not weird. There's. The ceilings are made of wood and they have these patterns happening that you find.
Cristina: That was a movie.
Jack: It's not. Oh, there are. This is a weird staircase right here.
Cristina: That is a weird staircase.
Jack: So that's going nowhere.
Cristina: Oh, the 44 stairs. Okay.
Jack: Yeah. Many staircases that go nowhere. Rooms that are complete solid colors.
Cristina: And you're saying nothing's based on this? Because I saw a movie and it looks like they based this weird house, their house. On this weird house, though.
Jack: A man's house?
Cristina: Yeah. No, I don't know. I don't know. It just gives me.
Jack: What's the name of it?
Cristina: Thirteen Ghosts, I think. Was it something like that?
Jack: Oh, I don't know. Maybe.
Cristina: Oh, just. Okay, we'll continue. So does this have to do with her, though, or this is someone else that came after?
Jack: What do you mean?
Cristina: Everything that we're seeing have to do with who? Sarah.
Jack: Oh, well, yeah, because Sarah bought this house.
Cristina: But it wasn't like that when she bought it.
Jack: No, it wasn't.
Cristina: So does she turn into that? Is it unrelated to her?
Jack: Let me scroll down and get to that.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: Since you need to know at this.
Cristina: Moment, I'm just curious. It's really hard to picture.
Jack: This is in the points section to take. There are records of Sarah having hired multiple contractors to renovate the property at different points. The original intention was to add parts to the house in the form of additional rooms connecting through hallways as if.
Cristina: It wasn't big enough. That's so crazy. But okay.
Jack: Every time she would break off the contract and continue on her own.
Cristina: Okay, okay. So she is out of her mind. Maybe.
Jack: Eventually she began to create her own designs in the house where her sister.
Cristina: Still living with her at this time.
Jack: Yes. She was maintaining her entire family and their children.
Cristina: Oh, that's crazy.
Jack: She began to implement the designs herself. And eventually. This is on record. She was approached. This is actually on the newspaper. She was approached by contractor offering assistance and was rejected when he offered free services to fix her. Increasingly, by his opinion, worst house.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: So, yes, she built this. Now, going back to the things in this house.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: The walls have 13 panes on average. When you look at the walls and architecture showed influences from around the world with a total lack of consistency, which is what you noticed. It looked like different buildings from different time periods and different locations from around the world. Because it was.
Cristina: That's very crazy. Okay.
Jack: Mm. The inside of the house is structured much like a maze.
Cristina: Okay. Yeah.
Jack: The house itself is designed over a series of geometric shapes.
Cristina: Why?
Jack: All the lines intersect in geometric patterns. All the lines from the top view, it does not represent what an X ray of the place would show us, which would be where a wall looks awkward in our eyes is a straight line connecting a perfect shape elsewhere.
Cristina: Weird.
Jack: Yeah. How. How'd she map it?
Cristina: And why is she doing it?
Jack: And why? That is the question. Why? What's the point of any of this?
Cristina: Yes. And why couldn't any of her family stop her? I understand she's paying.
Jack: She's paying all of it. Additionally, the house features in random parts of design, triangles, circles, and squares that could be found throughout the entire structure, oftentimes as simple details added to something. It doesn't seem like it serves a purpose. It's just aesthetic. It would seem.
Cristina: This seems like too much money. From what? Like, man? How much? Like. No, I don't know.
Jack: There is.
Cristina: I feel like it's adding up.
Jack: Also an additional room in the very, very, very center of the entire structure, which is equal distances from the main house and the back house and both ends of the absolute property, which she successfully built. A house over a hundred percent of the distance, not covering the entire surface area, but rather from one side to the other in each extreme.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: She managed to make the house touch every extreme. That's nuts.
Cristina: She sounds nuts. It looks nuts.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: But there's a room dead center of all four of those points, and that's the room.
Cristina: You saw the room, the one empty. Okay.
Jack: That's the empty room with 14 hooks. 13. My bad.
Cristina: 13 hooks.
Jack: 13 hooks on the walls. Yeah.
Cristina: What is that about? What's the hooks for?
Jack: Coats.
Cristina: Okay, what's happening?
Jack: Let's unpack this real quick, Because I think with what we have, there's enough geometric patterns, a house structured in a geometric form, and these geometric patterns intersect with a room in the center, an empty room in the center, A room with coat racks, little hooks to put your coat on.
Cristina: Because she's summoning some things. Thirteen of them.
Jack: Interesting, no?
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: So what is that room?
Cristina: The teleporter.
Jack: It's a teleporter of some sort, yeah. Why?
Cristina: Why?
Jack: I don't know why. Also, with all the times they went and ran over talking about there's some dude on the property doing this and that.
Cristina: They were not complaining about her.
Jack: You connected the house all the way to the part of the house you thought that guy was going to. You made the whole house reach that?
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Why? You made it cover the whole place. Why? And you put this room, this welcome room in the center of the house. Why? Weird.
Cristina: That is weird.
Jack: Very strange.
Cristina: It has to do with ghosts. Did they say anything about her seances, things like that?
Jack: When asked why she was building the house in this fashion, there is one line in a newspaper talking about the crazy lady. And the line says that her response is, I'm doing it to please the spirits.
Cristina: Okay, okay, that makes sense. That makes sense.
Jack: So then I gotta go down a different rabbit hole. What spirits are we talking about? Wheelbarrow men. One of the many spirits. But that doesn't seem like he would be bothering her. No, because ghosts don't bother anybody. They couldn't. That's not there. Spirits do. But that doesn't look like a spirit. Now, footsteps coming from nowhere and following people in the house is very different. Then footsteps somewhere in the house.
Cristina: That's what was going on.
Jack: Not that she reported. Again, I'm looking for what has been mentioned about this place. Those things have been reported. Not by her, but yes. Footsteps in the house. Now we have things. We have things. We got a guy who always goes to a cabinet. Echo. Had to be. He's always going to cabinet. Getting the same thing. A pantry. Always. And just kind of stops. It gets there and stops. There's a guy darting across the yard. Looks like he's playing sports. Okay, again, just the repetition. Yeah, that would be horrifying in the middle of the night if you're just wandering it straight across. But. Yeah, but like it happens every night. Same time, same kind of way. Okay. Yeah. Echoes. Why so many? I don't know what weird space time event took place here. Except the only one they claimed that has been seen by people afterwards has been the wheelbarrow man. There weren't other disturbances in this area originally. There was only the wheelbarrow then, which was their initial problem later. And as time went by, we get footsteps. Yep. Footsteps coming from nowhere. We get voices of people they think intruded into the house.
Cristina: This Is after her working on the house that more after she starts.
Jack: Yes. Now you get again, 100. As she starts building the house up. And more and more, it starts getting weirder and weirder. It starts getting way weirder. Eventually, there's voices speaking to the women.
Cristina: Oh, my gosh.
Jack: But they're not saying. It's incoherent. They can describe the same voice, and it's legible. You could tell things. It's telling them.
Cristina: Do you know what they're like? They. They have something.
Jack: No, these things weren't on record per se, but it was more just a record of phrase. Yeah, the record of that. They were, in fact, dealing with people in the walls and whatever. Now, here is a problem. These walls have passageways for days. The. Almost all the walls have a secret passageway. Why? You're hearing voices coming from every direction. Your walls have passageways.
Cristina: I don't know.
Jack: It goes from supernatural to what the f***?
Cristina: To like, she's just crazy and she's haunting her own sisters.
Jack: I don't know.
Cristina: It's very strange because, like, yeah, it could just be her. We don't know.
Jack: It could just be her.
Cristina: It could just be a man pranking them real hard. No, he's taking a wheelbarrow and also just running around the house. I don't know.
Jack: Until the things start to move on their own.
Cristina: Okay, then, yes, definitely.
Jack: Hauntings and shapes start to form in dark places.
Cristina: But besides her building random things, is there anything else that she's doing that's weird? I mean, it's pretty weird. I know, but, like, there's nothing else.
Jack: Nothing of now.
Cristina: Just every. What she's doing is somehow summoning or something, you know, like, causing these things.
Jack: She's building a house, and then there's creatures. I can't tell you the house led to the creatures. That's for us to figure out. Yeah, but I can tell you that she built the house and then things started to happen.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: I don't know that they're connected for a fact. I just couldn't tell you that they're not because that's too prominent.
Cristina: It seems like it has to do. But I'm just saying, like, did she do anything else?
Jack: Built a house?
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Loud lightning. Figures in shape start to roam the place the sisters described. Seeing other people in the building at this point, but never being able to catch up to the people in the building.
Cristina: That's crazy. They live there their whole life. Like, even with all this crap happening, they're just like.
Jack: Yeah, they're just paying for it. And they just avoid certain parts of the house.
Cristina: Wow.
Jack: Yeah. Now, the empty room. The empty room is the center of the entire geometric pattern. The empty room features one detail we could not see, but it looked like a closet. The closet is a shrine of sorts.
Cristina: What?
Jack: It is used to hold things for a seance. That is described as the seance room.
Cristina: Okay, then that makes a lot of sense. That makes so much sense. Of course. Of course. Well, was her sisters not involved in that, or was she doing it with other people?
Jack: No, she was doing this alone. She would reject help. Well, she, throughout the course of her life, built this house.
Cristina: Well, what was she obsessed with? Was it bringing back her dead husband? Do they know?
Jack: Other detail to add. The house built completely chaotic. The patterns in the house totally random. Different times of architecture, different styles of architecture from around the world, minus one little detail. One thing that took many, many, many years after this house was open to the public to even find out, which was that the entire house is overlaid with subtle hints of Masonic imagery and detailing.
Cristina: It is Masonic.
Jack: She's a Freemason. Sarah Winchester. Sarah Sally Lockwood Winchester was a Freemason before she started building this house. In the middle of the house, she built a room that seems to be the focus, center of whatever's happening in a literal welcome spot, some sort of gateway or something. And the house itself is designed as the key to the portal or whatever.
Cristina: But her being a Freemason, so like, she got the idea from them or something, Like.
Jack: Well, this brings up the next question. Should we be looking at what the. The Freemasons are and how they connect to the bigger picture? This is the first time they cross paths in this kind of way. We've read about their library and things. They hold the knowledge, but. But now we're talking on some s***. We're talking on portal bridging. We're talking on Sarah Sally Lockwood Winchester performing a potentially necromantic trick and her existing in the late 1800s. How would she know? And what the f*** is a Freemason to have the answer to any of that?
Cristina: You think they have some necromancer technology or something? Some knowledge about.
Jack: They know something.
Cristina: They know about Hermes. They know about his studies.
Jack: They might be the rejects. I've had a theory about Alexander, and I've had the theory that he branched off into the weak other fakes that eventually led to the fake philosopher's stones and all this other bullshit that we're familiar with.
Cristina: Really?
Jack: I think Alexander the Great because he couldn't Cut it made his own thing with what he did know.
Cristina: And do you think that's related to the Freemason or whole different.
Jack: Might be directly. I can't prove it, no. But yeah, I would go out of my way to do so eventually. But I do believe that there's some connection between maybe not that group specifically, but a group of people who perform a lesser version of what the necromancers did in fact do.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And I think Alexander led to that. There is a group of people who do that. We've seen imitations that we're like this is kind of sort of. But this isn't. Can't be because of this. And that other thing disqualifies him. And it's like, well, you guys don't have a full picture of what being a necromancer is, but you guys know, normal people don't how.
Cristina: And this lady specifically? Yes.
Jack: Like she may be part of these whack noobs who can at least bridge a gap to the other side. And this would bring in then another picture. Everybody we talk about minus a Greek avoid adrenochrome. But we know current day many, many, many people. And in the past many attempts with adrenochrome have been done other than the philosopher's stone. That's the highest literal called the magnum opus process to get to the perfect philosopher's stone. So there are many wack weak philosopher stones. Yes, I think these guys are ones. I think it's them. I think these people that we've read about doing this.
Cristina: Probably what she was doing. Like she's not making philosopher's stones as far as I can tell.
Jack: Philosopher stones. But she knows enough to bridge a gap.
Cristina: A gate into the shadow realm.
Jack: So I think so. I think so. And I have to tell you important detail because that is sort of the cherry on top of this. The most prominent figure that haunts this mansion following their no longer being in that house is Sarah.
Jack: Do you see the problem here? She built a gate the way Jesus did, didn't she?
Cristina: So that she can.
Jack: But it wasn't complete. Something is wrong. Jesus can walk through. They literally said we saw him here, we saw him way the over there.
Cristina: Thank you. Back here.
Jack: Yeah. But we've also heard things that look so close to being a ghost, except there's some form of free will here. So you're not an echo, you're some other thing. And sometimes we've called them demons, but they're the weird fact that you're stuck in an area we've never been able to solve.
Cristina: No, that's why we just call them ghosts.
Jack: We call them ghosts.
Cristina: We call echoes echoes? Yeah, like, because we don't have better names.
Jack: But now, if we assume a ghost is an echo, then what is this thing with free will? Right? People who might have f****** failed at doing the right thing. Let's use Full Metal Alchemist as an example.
Cristina: Okay?
Jack: So you try to bring somebody back to life. You get a homunculus because you don't know how to break. You're not God. You're gonna bring somebody back to life. Now, people do know how to do it. But if you.
Cristina: Is that why these deaths are important? Because, like, maybe she feared death after losing the most important people to her. She was like, this isn't gonna happen to me. Or something. Like, I don't know either. She wanted to bring them back, but then, like, does anyone see them?
Jack: She knows, but that the Freemasons are essentially the Fallout Brotherhood. We don't have the answers, but we know how to get the answers. And although they don't want to give us the answers, we'll try our best to do it by force. And it's like, cool, great and all, but also, you don't know where all of them are. And you don't have the full picture. Everything you do is half a** by default, even if you put your full effort into it. Yeah, because you couldn't go full because you don't know what that looks like. That seems to be the case. And all these cases are people who knew, sort of, kind of on average, the steps did the things, but you don't really get it. And you f***** up somewhere in the process. So you're kind of like an echo, but you're not. You're stuck in the middle ground. You trapped yourself in that other place. Archive 81, the show. Everybody go watch that. It's on Netflix. Archive 81. At the very end. Spoiler warning, anybody who hasn't run away, cover your ears. Count to 50 to get trapped in the place. But why? Because the demon knows how to get through. The people don't. They're playing with fire. They don't understand. So what happens? They end up trapped in the limbo equivalent of where he is and where you began. This portal location. They're stuck in the house forever. But why is that the case? Because the house is within proximity and probably there's borders. I'm sure it's a perfect circle at a certain distance. And you can't exit that perfect circle because you would Cease to exist because you got caught in the sort of ripple you caused in space time crossing rifts.
Cristina: Yes, yes, yes, yes, I see that must have happened.
Jack: And there's a specific spot in Clinton Road where it makes perfect sense. There's a f****** castle dead center.
Cristina: They were doing some more stuff.
Jack: Yes. And people think literally Satanists go and f*** around in that place. It's dead center. But this is way larger than the estate. So they were doing some big f****** things. If that's the case. But then this gives us a f****** look into is science. And you're bending space somehow. And if you f*** it up, you can leave it that way.
Cristina: Yes. And that's what happens to all these places. It's usually in the middle of nowhere. Like Clinton Row. We've heard many stories of just like an area that random things happen.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: Mad random things. Not really a house. This is the first time it's a house.
Jack: That's the first time it's a house. We find the center point. But also the castle in Clinton Road is its center point. It just so happens to be that Clinton Road, if you look at the paranormal area, kind of runs far to a side of it. But the entire forest with all the things, the castle's in the center.
Cristina: Weird.
Jack: Weird. And it kind of gives us a lot of information for a lot of things. Again, the slightest perspectives allows us to look at things that we would have ignored otherwise and. Wait a minute. You mean a room in the middle of the. Whatever. Oh wait. Paranormal activity. Maybe there's a gate here now. Maybe there's gates in a bunch of places. Maybe just looking for the most f****** haunted places is gonna lead us to people who connect directly to the necromancers, who connect directly to the Elysians, connect directly to the current day's Rayleighs. Everything is f****** pieced together.
Cristina: Oh my gosh. So where are we going? What's next?
Jack: Finding out what the most haunted places on earth are? Because those are places that were important to fakers.
Cristina: I feel like we have done that in the past. But I don't think we look to see who went there.
Jack: Who went there matters more than what's happening.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Now we know that what's happening is just some bullshit anomaly in space time.
Cristina: But like was a freemason or some type of group involved? Okay.
Jack: Because it could have been a mistake by somebody who knows what they're doing. Or it could have just been somebody who doesn't know what they're doing.
Cristina: Yeah. Gotta find out. Interesting.
Jack: Interesting. All because of Ms. Freemason herself.
Cristina: But does any of her sisters. Are they ghost too? Or is it just her unknown? It's just her unknown.
Jack: We have no idea for sure. People have claimed so that they've seen.
Cristina: Her sisters as well.
Jack: It's been reported.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: But there's been a bunch of. There's many, many, many, many, many, many, many. If this is what it is, then it's a whacking complete portal and a bunch of s*** comes in and out. But they're trapped within the premises.
Cristina: But it would make sense that her sisters would be trapped. And maybe that's her goal as well. Be like, why would I want to die? What would I want them to die? Type of situation.
Jack: Other things to note. Does she choose this house intentionally because of where it is? Is there a factor you can harness and so you're doing the house here?
Cristina: I don't know. It seems real random because it came from a doctor. It started with the doctor.
Jack: Yeah. The random details about her life. Her moving to San Francisco, California, to begin with. Her and her husband had discussed this before he died. That's their dream. Getaway location.
Cristina: Was to go there.
Jack: Was to go there. So she already had this place in her mind before the story even begins. I don't know why. I don't know if the house was in her mind, but she had the place in her mind.
Cristina: Was he involved? Because then, like, would he know? Like, okay, if I die, this is what you should do.
Jack: Like, unclear.
Cristina: Bring me back or something? Like, was he part of the group? Had they just, like. Was this their plan too?
Jack: Like, it's weird, right?
Cristina: It's weird. Yeah.
Jack: It's a strange, strange situation. It looks like she built a gate.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: To not only walk through herself, but bring other people through. And she had no idea how to do it the right way.
Cristina: No. But she had at least 13 people in mind. How many sisters are. There's four. No, there's four, including her.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: And then there's children.
Jack: Yes. And her baby.
Cristina: And her baby and her husband.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: How many people there?
Jack: I don't know. Maybe it adds up to 13.
Cristina: Like, what if it did? Everyone's saying, like, it's evil, but what if it's like she's just. There's just 13 of them.
Jack: Yeah. But it is crazy.
Cristina: It is crazy.
Jack: It's a very interesting situation that this lady went ahead and did this. It looks like she built. It looks like she built a portal. The house itself is a design, so it's harder to f*** with. You can't destroy the lines. Unless you break through a wall or some s***.
Cristina: Yeah, that's. It's very intentional.
Jack: Very intentional. It's a mess with a room in the center, and she did it, so. And she wanted contractors help, and she didn't trust them. They're not gonna figure it out.
Cristina: No. No. It would be impossible. I don't understand. I don't understand how she even, like, can they find the blueprints she made for this house? Like, is that even a thing?
Jack: F****** nuts, right?
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: So that's what we got. What do you think?
Cristina: I think that's crazy. I think maybe she is part of a group and we should see if we could find that group.
Jack: About that group. We got this point. We could find that group if we could find a bunch of other s***.
Cristina: Because then that means people know about.
Jack: Hermes nowadays, even if they don't get it.
Cristina: Yeah. There has to be attempts.
Jack: There has to be attempts. People start trying, we know people are still trying. There's. We know that there's so many factories.
Cristina: Of adrenochromes, but this also, like, feels related to necromancy. The other part that we don't really focus on. Of the dead.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: Like, that's maybe why most people get involved. It has nothing to do with teleporting to other worlds or anything, because they don't even know that's part of the story.
Jack: It could be about coming back themselves.
Cristina: It's just. Yeah. Most of them want to be immortal. Yeah. A lot of them.
Jack: Most of it. Same thing with adrenochrome. If you're doing necromancy, you're thinking immortality. If you're drinking adrenochrome, you're thinking immortality.
Cristina: And you're not ignoring all the. They have no idea about everything else involved. The history, the other worlds, etc.
Jack: None of it. No. 100%. There's a bunch of incomplete images and people f****** s*** up.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And I'm sure, based on this perspective.
Cristina: We can find it.
Jack: We can find that. I know that at least some of it has to be more situations like this that if you look at. Wow, this area is really haunted. I'm probably gonna start with Clinton Road.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: Because what the h***, a castle is there.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: So what do we have?
Cristina: I don't know. You're gonna find out, though.
Jack: Hopefully.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: But that's what we got. So that is the Winchester house. You guys can Google that name. And there are a plethora of images. It's open to the public. You can wander. Yeah. Everywhere. You don't need me to show you the images. They are everywhere. Enjoy looking at the Winchester house. There's a lot of information, a lot of it's conflicting, but most of it is out there. Feel free if you want to give us information. Anything you guys figured out, reading, looking, listening to this, ideas you had, whatever. You can hit us on our socials at justconvo, Pod on X, Facebook, Instagram.
Cristina: Tick tock, wherever the Remember to subscribe, rate and review the show.
Jack: Yes. And word of mouth. Tell people about how awesome this show is and how weird. Sarah Winchester, mother of Salmon Dean.
Cristina: No.
Jack: She had one kid and it died because she was a bad parent.
Cristina: That's awful.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: This has been the Rambling podcast. Take nothing personal and thanks for listening. Bye.
Jack: S.A.
Cristina: Good morning. Good morning. The podcast is hosted by Christina Collazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by great dots.info art by Zero Lupo and logo by Seth McCallister with social media managed by Amber Black.
