Rambling 281: Clinton Road: Part 2: Shadows
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If Ghosts we title Echoes are visible time loops that can’t be interacted with, what is its opposite? Can Phantoms be interacted with? What are they? The duo continue unpacking the narratives around Clinton Road on their endless quest to understand what happened in their childhood. No longer looking at Echoes, they focus on the things that react to visitors. The stones uncovered will reveal some new perspectives never before visited on the show!
+Episode Details
- Demonic Truck
- Ghost Children
- Disembodied Voices
- Headless Horseman
- Pine Barrens Devil
- Melting Trees
- Shifting Paths
- Ghostly Campers
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+Transcript
Cristina: Warning. This program contains strong themes meant for a mature audience. Discretion is advised.
Jack: Going live in 5, 4.
Cristina: What does live mean?
Jack: Welcome to the Rambling Podcast. I'm your host, Jack.
Cristina: And I'm your host, Christina.
Jack: And this is the show where we ground humanity's most absurd and baffling ideas. And so we do that.
Cristina: Do that every week.
Jack: We do that every week. We do that all the time. And so, you know, in the last couple of years, we've gotten way informed on a lot of sort of esoteric and stoic knowledge. Things hidden, you know, the, the secret scriptures and the secret texts and lost civilization things, and cross referencing information that suggested so many things. Anybody who's been following knows what we're talking about. So we've used this knowledge recently because it looks like we were digging into an infinite hole.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So let's use the knowledge instead of continuing to dig the infinite hole and apply it to other places that have very similar conditions. And so we've started to unravel things. And so last week we're digging a new hole. No, we're using the information we have from the hole to compare to other things and be like, oh, this looks like this over here and it looks like that over there. Okay, no more hole digging until something here informs us on which tool to go continue digging with. But point being that we were last week kind of going through some of the information that we were not talking about. But you know, we in the past have come across Clinton Road, which is a really odd place. And it had a lot of similarities to some of the things that we've recently uncovered. We've seen that we can find residue of high energy technology and it usually takes the form of space time alterations and odd anomalies. So looking for things like this informs us. And so two weeks ago we looked at a scenario that was heftily informed. I believe that was a skin walk around.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And then before that again, we had another instance, some creepy mansion.
Cristina: I don't know.
Jack: The mansion. Yes. And directly after the Skinwalker Ranch, we did Stonehenge. All which have the same things. And what we find is the same things. Gateways and distortions and a lot of quote, ghosts.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: So last week we go to the place we know has all of these things happening simultaneously on top of each other. And like I said, I broke it into three sections because there was absolutely too much happening in this one place and.
Cristina: Ridiculous amount.
Jack: Yes, too much. And for anybody who's not familiar, many, many, many years ago, maybe like four or five Years ago, we dove into the experience me and two friends had there, three friends. Of course, we couldn't get a contact with them, but we brought to them on the show. We talked to them and everything about how strange that place was. Everybody had different stories. Whatever. You guys can go look at it. It's Clinton Road. I think it was Halloween episode. It was like three episodes long or whatever. And last week, we were just going over anything that we would identify as an echo, a sort of replay of a different moment that is not interactable necessarily, but rather something that's happening but not now.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And there was a lot, some things of which were very important that we need to look at in the future. But that was only one of three sections I'd made because that was just the echoes. This week, I would like us to dive into the things that do respond to people. Not that just play on a loop, but the things in Clinton Road that seem to not be an echo, that seem to actually be a thing of some sort.
Cristina: Like a conscience thing.
Jack: Something thinking. Yeah, something responsive. Something maybe dangerous, maybe not.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: But that can respond. That seems to be moving with intention as opposed to a replay of a moment.
Cristina: Horrifying.
Jack: So next to the word phantoms, I've put conscious. I've put thinking intentional entities that are non human and probably could be from a different realm. I'm assuming the shadow realm, because Elfame or any higher level might be unlikely.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: So let's unpack some of these details. This is a little bit shorter than the echoes of which there were many. This is still pretty long, but it was just a couple shorter. So let's start by going into the pickup truck. This is probably the most known thing on this road. There's literally movies that have taken this concept and rolled with it. And it's just some menacing black pickup truck that allegedly chases drivers at night, only vanishing when there's another car coming towards them or when they are successfully in something faster. And funny enough, it faster is very exact thing, because faster is conditional. People have been in supercars running down the street, and this pickup keeps up.
Cristina: That's weird.
Jack: That's weird. But if this pickup truck isn't physically here, if this pickup truck is in a different space where whatever is there knows how to manipulate the sort of distortion to cover ground faster, then it would look like you have this sort of ghost truck following you at an impossibly fast speed. But maybe on their side, it's normal speed, but they know how to move in such a way that over here we move fast.
Cristina: How do we know this isn't an echo? What makes it different?
Jack: Because it does interact with people. This is where the speed becomes very important because the vanishing and the fact that it's on the road. Very interesting here. Now it has moved around cars. Oh, it has moved around cars. It has diverted to hit cars. Somebody jumps off the road and it'll jump off the road behind them.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: That's very, very different than something on replay. Now, what's weird about this place is that it seems to happen at exactly between four and six miles, nowhere outside that range, which means there is a particular heavy amount of distortion that somebody's abusing there, I suspect, at least.
Cristina: Yes, but not the person driving the truck. They're just driving their truck.
Jack: They're not. I think that there's just a nice little fold.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Of the two realms here. And he's just on his end, but he can clearly see because people from the shadow realm can just see us or whatever the f***. I have no idea how that works. Maybe it's the same that, like, as fear manifests, we start showing up over there more and they start showing up over here more, and so the lines start to blur.
Cristina: It could. Like, we don't have any proof of that. But why can't it be that.
Jack: Yeah, it'd be weird if it was just one way in this direction.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: But then it's. Yeah, I guess it would. I guess the argument would be that it's not that they're coming over here, but the veil is thinning.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And so we're sort of coming closer together in general.
Cristina: That could be it. We don't know.
Jack: Yeah, because we've always thought about it like, oh, the people from the shadow realm with fear start coming this way, but, like.
Cristina: Because it seems easier for them for it to be that way.
Jack: Yeah. But when we think about it, if they aren't actually over here, how are they seeing us? Yes, we're seeing them because they're phasing over here. But are they seeing themselves over there and themselves over here? That can't. That doesn't. Make sense.
Cristina: That doesn't make sense.
Jack: No, they're probably just seeing us start to fade in over there, and then they start to prey on us.
Cristina: Yes. Yep.
Jack: Interesting.
Cristina: That could be. That could be. I know there's ways in and out, but there's this other thing of just, like we're somehow in between both.
Jack: Yes. We're somehow at all times, well connected enough. And it's. It's a dial Right. You could turn it and sort of enhance how much of the entanglement is how much is crossed in that moment.
Cristina: How's that happening? But, yeah, I think that might be what's happening.
Jack: And in the case of this truck, I think that 4 to 6 mile range is a particularly dense area, which brings up an interesting point. Maybe this is a focal point of one of the major events that took.
Cristina: Place here in the future. Maybe. Question, I believe. Yeah.
Jack: Because there's. We look back and we find so little. We look. Well, we can't look forward. But the fact that, again, it's possible that a spacetime distortion from the future ruins the past, because that's how it works. It's space time.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And this distortion is huge here. But also the logic could be that it's a long, long street with no lights.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: Maybe people start to panic around the same distance.
Cristina: I wonder. I wonder what it is. I wonder if we'll find a glimpse of what really happens in the future, though, through this conversation. Maybe eventually, like. Because the weird thing that happens there may even be from the shadow realm. Because we know they do experiments like we do. They do experiments here, but they also do experiments there. So what if this is just a spot where both sides were doing experiments?
Jack: Doesn't even have to be both sides doing experiments, because there's many instances just this side doing experiments, and that can mess it up. So why wouldn't it be that only on that side and cause the same thing.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Especially after we know that it's almost like we are in the same space, but somehow a barrier was built to divide them. There's a wall that was put in between this realm and that realm. There isn't. The word realm ceases to lose meaning when we back up far enough because, well, this is just, you know, that room. And then he put walls around that room and called it Earth Realm.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: It's hard for us to get out the room, but we can.
Cristina: Yeah. It is up or down.
Jack: That's how it seems to be in every direction. Yeah. Which. It's weird, but this kind of really leans into the flatter theory. Right. Of like, well, they walled us in, but they're really out there. There's more.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: I mean, weirdly enough, that's kind of on the nose, but about the wrong thing.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: But, yeah, this truck is responsive. It is responsive. It chases people. My idea is 10 miles Clinton Road, 4 to 6 miles. But what does that mean? That means if I enter from north, four miles in. If I enter from south, four miles in. It's the same distance either way. It could just be the people within. Like, as you start getting more and more. You start getting more panicking, more paranoid. And so in the middle is where people are the most freaked out. Which would make sense that enough people freaked out consistently going through at that level of panic. More and more and more about that truck.
Cristina: Also will be pushing that too.
Jack: Not even hearing about the truck, but hearing about all the other things that happen here.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And then you get to this part, and maybe this guy is just some dude who lives on the other side, but in this part of it. And maybe he is a bad guy.
Cristina: Or he just wants that fear. Like, it's not really about murdering anyone. It's just like he knows he hasn't done.
Jack: Yes. That's another thing I found interesting. So the truck does show up. The truck chases people. But I made sure to mention the weirdest part about this, which is right before he does anything, he always disappears.
Cristina: Yeah. He's about to want it. And then he goes. Yeah.
Jack: He'll jump on the lane you're in from far ahead and drive straight towards you and drive straight at you and then just f****** veer off into the woods and disappear.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: It's like he's f****** with you. He's f****** with you.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Whoever that is, just f****** with you. He's not trying to kill you. That's the weirdest part. But it's so intentional. It's like he's f****** with you legitimately in an impossibly fast pickup truck that looks like a moving shadow.
Cristina: Yeah. I wonder if it's possible. It's. He was a human who ended up over there. Fascinating, because there are those cases and.
Jack: There'S hella thin places around here. Could just be slipping in and falling on the other side.
Cristina: Yeah. He just knows what he needs. He's probably was hooked on it. Adrenochrome when he was alive and, you know, died.
Jack: Which then goes back to all the. That's here. There's been cults and there's been sacrifices, and there's been a lot of.
Cristina: Yeah, a lot of adrenal chrome and stuff going on.
Jack: So anytime we find something weird, this is the thing. Right. We realize in the beginning of our journey, adrenochrome is everywhere. Everybody's doing adrenochrome and that's what's up.
Cristina: Yes. But then when those people die, it's even worse.
Jack: It's even worse because they lose their minds on the other side or they. In the Fear of knowing they're gonna lose their mind. They getting desperate to get back over here and get adrenochrome. So.
Cristina: So it could just be one of those people.
Jack: Could definitely be. And as long as he sustains the fear, he doesn't need the blood. Yeah, that could totally make sense. He has to. He has to cultivate it over and over and over. And it's like, I'm stuck over here, but I'm. I'm not gonna go crazy. I refuse. And I'm gonna just with people every day if I have to.
Cristina: Could be. It's really easy for him.
Jack: He's gonna get us fixed. He needs it.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: If it's a problem, people up, they. They go in and they don't realize how bad this really is. Now, the next one is children. This one is very specific. Apparitions of children playing on the roadside who vanish upon approach but can be seen waving at passersby. Oh, I thought echo when I was first looking at the mentions of this. And then I started looking deeper in, and it's like some people have these kids get excited, get up, look at them, start running towards them and disappear.
Cristina: It's hard to tell, though, between echo and not echo. It's really, really.
Jack: It is absolutely not the moment something is responsive. The fact that somebody stood there and then they started waving as opposed to. They're just waving at nothing.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: The echo would be doing the action regardless. It's not responding to an environment. It's not there.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Anything responsive cannot be an echo by default. This is the easiest distinction to make. It's not difficult.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: It will be responsive. If it's not. If you stand in front of it and you're like, hey. And it's like looking right through you and doesn't notice and walks right through you, and that's an echo. It doesn't realize you're present. But these kids see a car drive by. People see the kids play. They think ghost. The kids see the car. The kids, excited, get up and wave. What's weird about this is that they're not trying to get to the street. They're not trying to get to the street. They're just aware of the cars passing by, and so they wave.
Cristina: That's so weird.
Jack: Like, they know they can't make it.
Cristina: How many children is.
Jack: It varies.
Cristina: It varies.
Jack: But it's like they know they can't get to the street. There's an awareness of, oh, it's another car coming. How there's another weird thing from the.
Cristina: Other side that is weird. But is there they just look like normal children, too?
Jack: It's unclear. Small people.
Cristina: Small people.
Jack: Small people that appear to be children playing. Yeah, it's Clinton Road. Nothing is a specific description. It's night. Always.
Cristina: It's always night. Okay.
Jack: Yeah. It's impossible. Any clear description you want, you will not get. Yeah, this is Clinton Road at night, every time. And, like, kids that's in the woods, like, how detailed can you get?
Cristina: That is so creepy.
Jack: Yeah. But the fact that they know you're there, they'll just be minding their business. A car rolls by, somebody. Oh, kids. And then the kids and like, oh, my God, let's just keep going. But ultimately, the kids notice cars, but.
Cristina: If you stop, they would just be gone.
Jack: No, if they run towards you, there's like a barrier that they can't make it past because they vanish.
Cristina: Oh, okay. Oh, that's even scarier. Oh, my gosh. They run towards you and then just.
Jack: Yeah. So my idea would be that unlike visual thin places that we can see through and look to a different time or an echo that's just a fold repeating. I think this would be a literal. Not just thin places towards the past, but thin places towards the shadow realm. And, like, they can see through, but it's bubbles that they can't get through. Weirdly enough, same as us thousand years ago, looking at the sky and seeing a plane. And it's just because on the other side of the bubble, a plane went in front of it.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So there must be in front of this playground or whatever, a thin place just at the right angle that you can see it for maybe a hundred feet or so into the other side, and they can see you back and then you can interact, but beyond a certain angle, you can't. That's what it seems to me. Because they are responsive. They look in the wave, excited to see, and then they're just not there suddenly. But only do it when there's somebody you don't arrive and they're already in the motion. They're always awesome. Kids saw me and they came and they were coming to say hi, and they just not there suddenly. Yeah, it's pretty up.
Cristina: That's. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I guess that there's children on that side. Why not?
Jack: Why wouldn't there be? They're just people. Jin are just people.
Cristina: Yeah. Okay.
Jack: But I think this falls into something from the shadow room. The fact that they see the cars and they get excited. They're just kids. They're not trying to f*** with people. The way that pickup is they're really genuinely just kids or seems to be to people.
Cristina: But that's. That's it.
Jack: Yeah. They seem childish. The next one gets to more personal areas for me, which is disembodied voices, whispering voices heard in the woods, often leading people to feel as though they're being watched or followed.
Cristina: This is one that they say your name. We heard we were talking about one before on the last episode about someone saying your name.
Jack: This is unrelated to anything from last episode. These are all new things.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Yeah. This is just voices.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And these voices seem to be following people and it makes people feel like they're being watched. But mainly is that they're being followed because the voices are continuously behind them or next to them, around them. The voices tend to be unclear, but the voices seem like they're speaking a language. But it's also very, very off putting and very disturbing. The sort of guttural sounds that get made. It sounds like language, but like a demon is talking to people. It's the best way that people have described it. I would argue that we're hearing Jin language.
Cristina: Okay. Like shadow realm.
Jack: Yeah. And like it just sounds up to us because we've never discussed what it would sound like to speak in a place that's not physical. You don't have. You don't have vocal cords or anything.
Cristina: But they got. I would assume they have some kind of language because we do hear about people who do go over there and communicate with them.
Jack: And here's another thing. If I don't understand. I was thinking about this and just because I said this, it made me think about it again. I don't understand how it is that all the old text we find describes the shadow realm as a non physical place. But physical beings can so easily traverse. But also adrenochrome makes you traverse. I don't understand that problem. Because you have to stop being physical to get there with adrenochrome. But you can. Like the judge just walked in.
Cristina: Well, we don't know his life. What if he had Jesse? He had adrenal crown before.
Jack: How do you get back out? How does anybody go in and out? How do you get your body into a non physical place and then walk out still physical. Your body doesn't just dissolve and disappear and you can't ever come back. That doesn't make sense. There's some interpretation that's wrong there. Because that is a conflict of description is contradicting.
Cristina: It's a paradox.
Jack: You can't both be physical on the other side and not be physical on the other side. On the flip side, we do discuss ourselves as physical and non physical. There is a soul version of me that's controlling my body and then there's the body that the soul is controlling. There's the physical and the metaphysical simultaneously. But then that means that all the descriptions they have of the other side are f****** stupid because it's just this. But over there. Well, it's a non physical place. Your souls and stuff. It's like. You mean like we have over here?
Cristina: But is our body going in there? Our body's falling asleep and then we go in there. Like how does that.
Jack: I don't know. How would the Judge enter on earth realm on this side, take a shortcut in there and then pop out somewhere else? His body then just flatline over here and stay there unconscious, and then teleport to the other side of Earth?
Cristina: Huh?
Jack: Do you see the problem? There are active contradictions. And how this is described. There's something we don't understand necessarily because it's described as such a physical place. And you need adrenochrome to have a certain state. But also, let's think about adrenochrome. It's a physical thing.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Why would it take you somewhere non physical?
Cristina: It has to be just physical in a different way. It's not non physical. It's just.
Jack: Yeah, there's something we're not grasping about it.
Cristina: Yeah, but you need. You need it still to get there and somehow.
Jack: Yes, yes. Even with a gate, you cannot enter the shadow realm unless you've had adrenochrome. We thought adrenochrome meant only after you die. But then later we find out some people can actually just walk in every time except the Judge. That we don't know for a fact. But every other time required adrenochrome. So it's a physical place that requires that no matter what, something about the adrenochrome allows your body to adapt to the conditions of the shadow realm. I don't think it's not a physical place. I think they were focusing on the descriptions of what adrenochrome is doing in order to describe what the place is. Yeah, I think that's the reality of the matter. I don't think it's not a physical place. I think it's a different realm. Obviously it's a different space that requires some alteration physically that is different than what we consider normal on the side. And so in their attempt to describe that, it sounds like you're talking about something non physical.
Cristina: But I don't think you actually. You don't need adrenochrome because necromancers don't. They just need a state of mind. They. They can do it. Yes, they can. Just.
Jack: But there's also heavy understanding. And they have stones that are made of the same thing.
Cristina: They have the stones to do it.
Jack: They have the stones to do it. And it's made of the same thing that adrenochrome is. It's just not in their body. Now this is an interesting point you bring because Adrian, necromancers don't need to consume it yet their body can still exist in the Shadow Realm.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Now let's take a step back because we don't have an instance of a necromancer in the Shadow Realm that we've ever read. We just know it says they can. But the only time we have them actually traversing instead of giving somebody the way to is through Elfhame. And we don't even know if they physically stand in Elfame as opposed to use Elfame to cut through.
Cristina: That's exactly what it seems like.
Jack: Yeah. Which means they're not entering the Shadow Realm either.
Cristina: Oh.
Jack: Because we've never had a single discussion that says they entered the Shadow Realm. They just know how to get there. Which presumably means they know how to navigate the Shadow Realm even if they don't enter the Shadow Realm as a shortcut. Another shortcut. They can get anywhere, anytime, however they want.
Cristina: Yeah. That's so weird though. What is that? What?
Jack: Unless Elfame and the Shadow Realm are physical, which seems to be the case too. I don't know. It's so many contradictions there. Yes, but maybe if it. If it's not a different layer and it all is seamless, just with barriers like flat earth. A circle within a circle within a circle. If that's the case, then a necromancer literally enters the Shadow Realm. And a necromancer literally enters all fame.
Cristina: But as far as we know, that doesn't happen. Really?
Jack: We don't have a mention of either. Yeah, I've never seen a mention of either of those scenarios happening.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So we don't even have Santa Claus entering the Shadow Room.
Cristina: No.
Jack: Nothing.
Cristina: Jesus. Entering the Shadow Realm after he died. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's.
Jack: The rules feel consistent. There is consistency. He didn't enter. He exited. He died. To get there.
Cristina: He died. He went to their prison, kidnapped a bunch of them, got some stones.
Jack: People over here thought it was part of their plan. To get rid of Jesus. Little did they know, Jesus planned every part of it. He needed to get over there.
Cristina: Yes, Very weird.
Jack: But then the transition state, I think is important, which then brings up a different problem. Did Hermes have to die? Because one very important thing we have to remember about necromancers is what are they most known for? Relating to the dead. The dead and death.
Cristina: That is interesting.
Jack: That is very interesting.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And Jesus is an example of somebody who didn't touch the other side until he died.
Cristina: So do they have to die?
Jack: Do they all have to?
Cristina: I think so, because Santa Claus, obviously that happened to him. That's why we have this Nicholas, who's so different from Sam. There was some metamorphosis, something that happened there, obviously.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: I don't know about Patrick.
Jack: I don't. I don't know about that. But he's also loosely the bottom tier of this.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Meanwhile, Merlin has several stories of his end.
Cristina: Yes. Yeah, yeah, this is making sense. Yeah.
Jack: So all necromancers must. Or at least it seems to be, death is part of the process.
Cristina: I think so. I think so.
Jack: Mm.
Cristina: It makes sense.
Jack: Which means Hermes probably consumed adrenochrome, but in a scientific correct way that keeps him in control just so he can cross over to the other side.
Cristina: Actually, yeah, I think that's right. I think they had to die.
Jack: I think he had to die. We might not have the text, but we have Jesus the only example of a necromancer entering the shadow realm and he had to die to get there.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: If it was so easy and it was so simple and you could just get there, why do you need to die?
Cristina: That doesn't make sense. Is the Judge.
Jack: Judge doesn't make sense. How do you get in?
Cristina: Unless he was a living dead person and just didn't know it.
Jack: Interest. So in any case, the idea is we have to find Inanna's brother and see what. We gotta really dive into him and.
Cristina: Find out what the stories they have about him does.
Jack: Can we find that the Judge has died? That's the reality of the matter. Can we find if the Judge has died?
Cristina: I think. I think we will find. Because if he has one weird story, I'm sure there's other weird stories he's involved in.
Jack: But then that brings up a really, really, really exaggeratedly interesting question that we didn't cross at any moment.
Cristina: What's that?
Jack: The Judge is the third necromancer. Fourth.
Cristina: Fourth Jesus?
Jack: No, he's like fifth Jesus, Merlin, Santa Patrick, the Judge, and Hermes number six.
Cristina: Oh, Hermes. Yeah.
Jack: Six necromancers in all of history.
Cristina: I would think so. I think so. I think we're on to something.
Jack: So. So then the question is, is the judge a necromancer?
Cristina: He might be even one of them. Like, we don't know. They all live such long lives.
Jack: I know. It's so weird, bro. It's so weird. There's some timeline distortions in this whole narrative. That's f*****. Some people go millions, some people go hundreds of thousands.
Cristina: So many different lies. We know Jesus had so many lives. Like, he wasn't just the Jesus in that place, but he was the whatever in that other place and the whatever in that other place.
Jack: Yeah, but this lives is an exaggeration because we're talking about.
Cristina: No, he was still living one life.
Jack: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like not even that far apart. We're talking like he was here a couple of months. He was there a couple.
Cristina: Yes, but like that. They all seem to have that type of thing of like, I'm gonna pretend to be this person over there and I don't think.
Jack: I don't. The. The dialogue you're using, I think is incorrect. I don't think it's pretending. I think we're talking about him going to different places where people speak different languages and they're using their interpretation of what his name would be.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And so he lands at a different name and they're using their words to describe him, which is why the words aren't exactly the same, but they're so similar. If we were to paint the picture, he would look the same.
Cristina: Yeah. So this guy could just be someone else that we've met before and we just don't know it.
Jack: Interesting, interesting, interesting. You believe the judge could just be one of these other guys?
Cristina: Like, who knows? Because it's so rare that it would happen. To imagine that this is just another one, it's harder to believe.
Jack: Yeah. But it's also equally hard to believe. Yeah. It's like to imagine he's another one is really hard. And to imagine he's some casual who just enters the shadow realm is even more. Yes. Now here's something that we do have to look at though, because now thinking about it, he can't be a necromancer. He can't be. At least not in a way he's aware of, because he was shocked by the entrance. He had discovered it and was like, what the f***? And then he told his sister and he was like, it's the craziest thing. And she was like, show me. And then that's how they found the kingdom on the other side. He, you know, he became homies as he went through.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: So he wasn't a necromancer, at least knowingly. If he was, he maybe stumbled upon a process or something.
Cristina: Probably some story. There's other things, though, that they rarely talk about. Like the plants and the app, the fruits and, you know, things like that.
Jack: There are other ways.
Cristina: So rare. But, like, humans don't interact.
Jack: Like, really.
Cristina: Yes. Like, he might have found one of those things.
Jack: You're totally right. So the science is very likely the fruit hard. You gotta go to the shadow room to do it.
Cristina: Yeah. But, like, there are things that exists that just don't get talked about because.
Jack: Like, plants are on this side and.
Cristina: They'Re, like, heavily guarded. So if he stumbled upon it.
Jack: Not the flower. The flower wasn't. The flower is just a flower.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: The flower was not heavily guarded. In fact, the mention we got of it was just somebody figured out that this could do that.
Cristina: Yeah. So, like, he could.
Jack: Maybe that's flowers in more places, but we can't tell it apart from something else. Oh, it's just a flower. But if we saw it and we knew what it was, we can consume it and without. Because we know that adrenochrome is the addictive one. But there are other things. Adrenochrome comes in three parts. It's ichor, it's ambrosia, and it's the literal liquid of nectar. Those are the three states. What is it? Ambrosia is the little organs that are adrenochrome dense. And then there is the. What is ambrosia? There is ichor, which is distilled. It's after it's been consumed. Yeah, it's the blood. I mean, they're all blood, but after it's been distilled, somebody consumed adrenochrome. And now you take the blood of a person who's consumed adrenochrome, and it sort of went through a process.
Cristina: Vampirism.
Jack: And then there is the. Not ambrosia. Nectar, which is just liquid. It's drinking the blood. It's just drinking the blood. It's Jesus's preferred form. But although Jesus is very known for both. He likes ambrosia, he likes to consume the individual, and he likes to drink their blood, too.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Or at least he's discovered is the most efficient combination. It doesn't look like he did ichor, but it looks like he gave people ichor.
Cristina: Yes. He loved sharing it.
Jack: Yes. Now, interesting point. The descriptions. I didn't think about this until right now. The descriptions that we went through about ichor, ambrosia and nectar make it seem like ichor is the valuable one because people who are normal can take it and die. It's super strong. But Jesus was giving people ick. Ichor, not adrenochrome or ambrosia. He was giving himself.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: To them, which is ichor. Even if it's his flesh, that would look like ambrosia. No, he had adrenochrome.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Even if it's his blood that you would call nectar. No, he had adrenochrome. Everything he's given you is actually ichor.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Nobody's as powerful as Jesus. The combination of ambrosia and nectar is stronger than the distilled ichor, which is both of them together. And he was giving his blood as high up on the totem pole as you can get. And still ichor was not as good. Is it because who he is, he can just do it with these two and be as powerful and like somebody having something stronger can't catch up? Or is it that there is an actual better combination to be had with ichor and. Well, I mean, with nectar and ambrosia, then there is to be had with ichor. And he knows the trick to it.
Cristina: He probably knows the trick to it.
Jack: Well, he's also a unique being. Why wouldn't it be the other? Why wouldn't it be that? Just. It doesn't matter what anybody else consumes. He's always going to be spirit.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: You know my point?
Cristina: We don't know what he is is very unique. Yeah.
Jack: Very special. So, yeah, just, you know, food for thought. Okay, next on the list, we have. It's weird about those disembodied voices, by the way.
Cristina: So you heard those disembodied verses.
Jack: Yeah, we heard children and we heard voices. I never saw the kids. But you remember we were hearing kids laugh.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: By the way, important detail. This just so happens to be on the road to paradise.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Which is where we heard the kids.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: That's why I was saying that this is, like, personal.
Cristina: Yeah, that's.
Jack: This is right on the road to paradise, where this has been reported, which is where we were when we heard the kids laughing. Well, first we heard the laughter and we couldn't make it out. And then we pulled on the side where the car just stopped turning on, and then we just started hearing.
Cristina: What is the car turning up or is that something else? I will talk about in the future.
Jack: I don't know. I don't know. That was a weird one. I looked when. Because of hearing the disembodied voices. It made me think about the car turning off. And then I was like, when has this happened? And there aren't mentions of this anywhere. This is just a weird thing that happened. It could have just been that our car was s*******. That was weird time. It was a weird timing. Yes, but, like, what weird timing?
Cristina: What we are timing, I don't understand.
Jack: Like, I can't explain it. But then the other thing is, let's. Let's have a quick. Maybe we're not gonna make it to the end of this. And this part alone is gonna be too. But we have to address this next point because I think I'm about to say something that's gonna make a lot of sense here. We hear the kids laugh. We hear laughter. We get on the dirt road. We pull up to the side just to scare the guys, lower the windows. We start to hear kids actually laughing. We're like, oh, f***. Like we were just f****** around, bros. F*** this. We put the windows up, trying to turn the car on. Wasn't turning on. We finally get the car on and we drive into paradise. Do you remember what happens next?
Cristina: You see a sign.
Jack: Yeah. Deaf children.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And then the. The. The F is slashed and a D is put over it.
Cristina: The children.
Jack: Yeah, but that's not even the important part. What happens in paradise?
Cristina: That's all I remember.
Jack: You don't remember what happens when we drive into paradise?
Cristina: You hear more children. No.
Jack: We tried to get out of paradise and we can't.
Cristina: Oh, yes. I don't know. Okay. Yeah. I don't know.
Jack: It's like you never remember anything I needed to remember. Not once. It's horrible. But we enter paradise and then we can't get out of paradise. Paradise is where we hear children. Paradise is where we hear laughter. Paradise is where the dead children sign is. Where did we enter when we went to paradise?
Cristina: Where did you enter? Some type of loop. Some type of time thing.
Jack: What else looks like a physical place on this side and is not supposed to be because it's a jumbled mess that somebody on this side wouldn't be able to navigate.
Cristina: I know I should know. I don't know.
Jack: I don't understand. What happens in your mind? Obviously the shadow realm, girl. It's the only thing that looks like a physical. I'm gonna just stop trying to get you guessing. It doesn't work ever. I just got to Tell you, showing you doesn't work. The shadow realm, like everything, its description is literally a physical earth place that looks like a jumbled mess of an example of a physical earth place. I don't know. I got to explain this.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: That is what it is. And we enter, we see distortions, we hear distortions and turning. Or we drove straight. We turn around and we're trying to drive straight out and the exit's gone weird. That sounds like the shadow realm. Now how the f*** would we have entered? Second, it looked absolutely normal to us. So could it have been?
Cristina: It could just be the whole veil example thing of like you're just. You're seeing it, but you're not actually in it. Like they're seeing you and you're. They're not actually there.
Jack: Then the straight line would have gotten us out.
Cristina: There must have been something messing with you as well. Like an actual thing.
Jack: Right. And how is it gonna change the shadow realm structure or our. How is it gonna change the physical space we're in?
Cristina: I don't know.
Jack: There's a huge issue right there.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: We go in, yeah, like three blocks in, do a 180, no turns, drive the same path we got there through. See? None of the same s***. And the f****** dirt road's gone.
Cristina: I don't know. Some of them have abilities. Maybe it was messing with you guys.
Jack: And we take hella turns through paradise. When we took no turns, we take mad turns in paradise trying to find our way out. And somewhere in a different corner entirely, we find a dirt road again. And then we find our way out after like 20 minutes of doing circles when we had only gone in a straight line, turned around, tried to do the same straight line back and just dead end, no road. So what was that? I've thought about that following some of this research, and I'm like, man, this.
Cristina: Isn'T match up with anything.
Jack: Doesn't match with anything. This is easily the shadow realm. Minus the fact that it couldn't be. Because how the f***. Unless these descriptions of the shadow realm, we are taking them too literally. And it's not a non physical place. We did see a jumbled mess of something we had just looked at that looked normal.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: We saw the same place jumbled up.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: Nothing else changed except we couldn't navigate it. And it seemed bigger after we'd gone in.
Cristina: Soon as you got scared, as soon as the car. As the kid, children and the car.
Jack: As soon as it all. Yes, we fell into something. Right.
Cristina: Fear happened. This really overwhelming fear probably happened at that moment for all.
Jack: From all four of us at the same time.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And then we panic, go on the road, and then we slip in. But then the argument would be, you don't need adrenochrome and Jesus did. There's something wrong here. There's a contradiction still going on.
Cristina: Because I don't think you're really in it, though.
Jack: I don't think so either. So then. Okay, so then what you're talking about might be the logical path that maybe even the judge didn't.
Cristina: Yeah, he saw. He saw a glimpse of it, or they.
Jack: He was literally interacting with people on the other side. And he met Ixchel, which then came out and went to Maya. They were literally something is. But we're onto something now because if we. You're totally right. All of this followed the fear. Let's recount the story. We drive in first. We see the guy in the robe, a black guy essentially walking around in a KKK robe. Weirdest sight ever. Okay. With a machete or a shotgun. Nobody was clear on which one he was holding. Everybody had a different story. We get far enough, we see the deer cut open. Okay. Panic, you know, Everybody like, what the f***? Yeah, we get far enough, we hear the laughter. We try to scare the guys, end up scaring ourselves because we hear the kids. We take the dirt road and suddenly the s*** spins out of control and we're nowhere. But we're everywhere. Because the one road we took disappeared and now we're just in this mess and we can't get out. And then the road showed up somewhere else entirely. Maybe you're right and we're just seeing it because again, it doesn't make sense that they could see us and we can't see them. I think it's a notch where the more you turn it, the more both sides are close together. Not one side to this side.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So we're slowly more and more seeing.
Cristina: But you're not physically there. I'm not physically there seeing.
Jack: Now, in this instance, there is an interesting. This contradiction could then be resolved because when they're talking about the shadow or on being a non physical place, they are talking about getting there non physically through fear, through these other means that allows you to interact with that space without entering that space.
Cristina: Yes. Oh, okay. Yes.
Jack: And then there's a way to actually enter and be in the space which requires totally different means. In this scenario now we can apply the things that we didn't mention about necromancers. What are they really good at? Even if they don't cross. They're good at bridging communication. They're good at bringing things from that side over. They're good at interacting with things on that side, even if they don't go in. So they know how to turn the dial that allows them to f*** with things on that side without being on that side, which I would argue is stronger, more overpowered than having to be on that side. Additionally, if you have a Philosopher's Stone that has the ability to violate those rules, could you, in theory, use the Philosopher's Stone to make a sort of external shell that would allow you to enter without falling apart? Hence their ability to traverse and not be simultaneously. Like a suit made of. Think of Green Lantern puts the ring on and a green energy goes over his body. And now he can manipulate this energy. What if what's happening that's happens with the Philosopher's Stone? And I could use the Philosopher's Stone, create this energy around me, and just slip into the Shadow Realm without needing adrenochrome. Without the energy, I would just die over there or pop up over here, but I can literally be there without consuming adrenochrome. Now, Jesus didn't have Philosopher's stones. He went to acquire them.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Now we have a reason why he needs to die.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Maybe he didn't know how to make it. As overpowered as he is, he went to acquire them. Different.
Cristina: That's so weird that he didn't know how to. Because he knew how to make the Gates. The person who taught him how to make the Gates would know how to make it. Make a philosopher stone. Yeah, well, maybe Jesus wasn't into having to mass murder people.
Jack: Yeah. And he knew these things already exist. Let them kill me and I'll go get the stones, because I'm gonna be fine.
Cristina: Yeah. Mm. He just. He's just different.
Jack: He's just different. He. Look, he. His. Everybody who's ever talked about him said the same thing. He was preaching kindness the whole time. Regardless of what they saw him do or how they saw him do it. A lot of people were like, he did some pretty diabolical looking s***.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: But attached to that, did he hurt anybody? Well, no, he did a bunch of diabolical s***. But he kind of just told us all to be kind to each other.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Like fair.
Cristina: He's making an army. And his army aren't being forced to be his army. They're choosing to be his army. Whether it's from the Shadow Realm or it's us humans.
Jack: Yeah.
Cristina: And you're just, we're on his side. They're on his side.
Jack: I mean, when your argument is be kind and stop anybody who's not, it's like, f***. I mean, yeah, bro. And look, I'll give you powers to do it. Oh, s***. You're gonna give me powers to be kind and stop anybody who's not. That's.
Cristina: The only people he wants to get rid of are the sea people, though. Like, that's clear.
Jack: And like, let's be fair as we've dug in deep into this, like, kind of. Yeah. It makes sense. Look, even if Jehovah's on the side of the people, like, you guys just ultimately only want them alive so you can keep running experiments.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: You're like, don't let the civilization fall apart. We need to kill them for stones.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: You know, so ultimately that puts us back on Lucifer side. Right? Where he's like, give them tech so they could reach us. You're gonna kill them anyways.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Let those that can do it do it.
Cristina: Except that they couldn't.
Jack: Doesn't matter if they're gonna be massacred anyways. To make a stone. Give somebody a chance.
Cristina: Yeah, that's true. Okay.
Jack: This is all right, dude. I understand why the. The Lucifer, Jehovah problem is huge. Because it's, like, flopping back and forth.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: One of these guys is somehow right, or it's so nuanced that they're both right and wrong.
Cristina: Yes. I think that's more the most truthful.
Jack: Because in Jehovah's eyes, they're gonna die anyways, bro. I'm like, let's give them purpose. Let's let them their lives be used to improve the world. While Lucifer's argument is give them the choice. Let them choose what happens if it collapses. It was their choice, not yours.
Cristina: Yes. It's pretty good.
Jack: Like, f***, give them purpose. They're ignorant. Both of them are on point. Give them purpose. They are ignorant and they're gonna self destruct. Don't let them die meaninglessly. You give them this technology. They can't handle it. They will die meaninglessly and haven't gotten nothing. Which we see many relics from civilizations that are kind of Lucifer's fault. But he gave them a chance to make their choice. Jehovah is all about taking that choice.
Cristina: Away because he thinks that's safer.
Jack: He thinks it's better and more noble. Use them for something that they would be proud of. If they looked back. If they looked back a thousand years and thought, oh, I died in this moment, but all of human history improved because of my sacrifice. They would. His logic at least is they'd be happy.
Cristina: And what is Jesus point of view?
Jack: F*** both of them. Both of them. Don't give people technology so that they blow up and kill themselves and don't sacrifice people. Leave them alone.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Which, like, okay, when? That's the third argument. Kind of f*** those two other guys. Yeah, that's legit. We can move slowly. It's fine. We don't need to f****** flash forward a million years instantly and then collapse because we couldn't deal with it. And we don't need some other guy sacrificing us to accomplish the same f****** thing. Yes, maybe f*** both of them and just let people do what they're gonna do if we kill ourselves.
Cristina: At least it was us.
Jack: At least it was us. No interference.
Cristina: Yeah, okay.
Jack: In that argument. Yeah. Jesus.
Cristina: Oh, all right.
Jack: It's a lot of sides and, like, nobody's right or wrong until you put Jesus in the mix. And I was like, well, that m************ are wrong.
Cristina: Yeah, well, yeah, he's pro human, so.
Jack: He'S pro human regardless. Even if the other two are technically pro human. It's a lot like leftists trying to decrease criminal sentences for people who. A black judge gave them a really large sentence and then they go to prison for this really long time. But leftists are like, that's unjust and blah, blah, blah. And then they go ahead and force a different judge to decrease the sentence and the guy gets out of prison and he gets murdered a week later. And then we truly go and talk to the people who understand, not just feel like they're gonna help. Oh, I want to help. I want to help. But you're ignorant. You're stupid. You don't know the situation. We go and talk to somebody on ground level. Well, the judge is families of the gang that's in the prison, and that guy is a neighborhood friend. He increased the sentence so that he goes to that prison specifically and is protected there. He was gonna stay alive in prison. You guys got him out and he got killed. That's Jehovah and Lucifer being helpful leftists.
Cristina: Jehovah and Lucifer or Peter trying to save animals but then killing dogs.
Jack: Yes. The same logic of, you're not being helpful, you're just thinking you're being helpful.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And that's a very leftist ideology. So we can just throw Lucifer and Jehovah in the leftists and say, you're kind of ignorant. You think you're helping, but you're not on the ground level. Knowing what the people want.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: You go to Jesus. Jesus is just asking people. Yeah. He's just like, I know why that guy went to prison on a really high sentence. He asked a judge for it. And you ignorant f**** don't know that Jesus is the guy who knows. He talks to the people. He's like, what do you guys want? Well, we just want to live our lives.
Cristina: He was forced to be with the people.
Jack: Yes. That's. That's literally Jehovah and Lucifer's fault.
Cristina: Yes. Yeah.
Jack: They made the problem that stopped them.
Cristina: Yes. That's really interesting.
Jack: They literally made him in a labor, and then they were like, f*** that guy.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And threw him to the people.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: So the people were like, well, he's one of us, and he grew up as one of them. And they treated him right until. Who f***** him? The f****** people working with the Elysians.
Cristina: Oh, yeah.
Jack: The Church came after him, huh? Even more incentive. F*** that. Let's work these a******* into my plan so I can f*** him more.
Cristina: Beautiful.
Jack: LinkedIn. Yeah. Sacrifice me. Totally, man. Kill me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he enters and goes. He took it from Lucifer, bro. Even if these two guys didn't agree, they were still eye to eye on the people. We need them for something. He just used Jehovah and his disdain for Lucifer. Got himself killed to enter, rob Lucifer, and then get back to Earth Realm knowing these two guys aren't gonna work together.
Cristina: No. Yeah, I guess.
Jack: Divide and conquer.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: F****** 3D chess, bro. I mean, 4D chess.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Okay. Weird one. I didn't know this next one originated here. I was looking to see if this came from somewhere else, but this actually comes from the New England era of the United States, which is. The Headless Horseman is a New Jersey Clinton Road thing.
Cristina: Yeah, it is.
Jack: I had no f****** idea that that originated over here.
Cristina: Yeah, it did.
Jack: In fact, I would have thought that this was, like, an Eng type of ghost.
Cristina: There's a lot of ghosts that actually were from around here.
Jack: Yeah. No, we are in weird land.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: We're in a really hot spot.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Weird. New Jersey is legit.
Cristina: It is it. That's why.
Jack: Yeah. No, we are in some crazy hotspot. I had no idea. I thought the Headless Horseman was significantly older and, like, by default had to be some, like, European thing. Yeah, no, that is just a Jersey thing.
Cristina: It's a Jersey thing. Yeah.
Jack: It got taken and showed up in a million places. But, no, that's. That's us. That's a Jersey thing.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Now, this is described as a humanoid that looks kind of like a shadow that doesn't seem to have a head in the way we would describe. And he's on something that we would compare to a horse, but doesn't necessarily look like a horse. This tells us a couple of things. It's a jinn of some sort. And he looks kind of human, but he wouldn't look perfectly human. That makes no sense.
Cristina: So it's a creature from somewhere else writing a creature from somewhere else.
Jack: It would be the people of the shadow realm, the gym, and whatever their horse equivalent is.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And based on everything else we know of the area. Now, there's a weird one. He doesn't f*** with people. Doesn't f*** with people. He's just not an echo. He is responsive. And here's the weird thing about this, right? People have yelled at him, and he'll stop and look like, turn his torso.
Cristina: Towards him and just gonna say, like, how.
Jack: You know, just turn and, like, wait. Like, he's just a dude. It seems like just a dude.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And he's like, okay. They, you know, people from the other side saw me. Let's, you know, let them have their moment or whatever. I'll stop here and let them roll by. Oh, they saw ghosts, whatever.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: And it's like, it looks like he's not f****** with people. He's not doing it. He's just there and people see him. People have, oh, my God. The headless. And then he just, you know, he'll stop and kind of behaves like a. Like if he's a tourist attraction.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Oh, like, yeah, they're looking at me. Let me stop. And so he's very known for just stopping. He's very known for, like, approaching. But this. These descriptions are where it gets very informative because this falls in line with all the other things we saw of the things that interact. If you look at the truck, if you look at the children, proximity makes them vanish. But in his description, it's something very different. What, he gets close and gets more translucent. Yeah. So, like, really far away. It looks like whatever particles hold him together are denser together. But the closer he gets is like. If you were shrinking and looking at atoms more and more, everything would kind of look more far apart, more far apart. If you were the size of an atom, you wouldn't see two things touching ever. There'd be no body. There's no such thing.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: Sort of that same thing. The closer he gets, the more through him. You could see.
Cristina: What does that mean, though?
Jack: I don't know. So when he's maybe 20ft away, he's so hard to make out. But he's there, and you know he's there. It's like closer than that, you know, you can't tell he's there anymore, but he's not. And that's closest. F***. By the way, 20ft is nuts. But. So he's fully aware you're there. And, you know, he. I did it. I tried to find if maybe his voices come from him or if he waves or something, like the kids. Yeah, none of that. But he is fully aware that people come through.
Cristina: You know, just sense that he. He notices you.
Jack: He. Well, people see him, and I guess he would hear them or see them himself. Because if we assume that there's a notch and you see him as much as he sees you, then he's aware. There's one road. There's one road. Anybody who is on the other side and wants to interact with humans, they know where the humans are. They're on the road.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And so it really. These descriptions. Not that anywhere says what I'm saying, that he's behaving like a tourist attraction. But if you were to tell me to describe what's happening, he's behaving like a tourist attraction. He knows all those people entertained, want to be scared or whatever. I'm not gonna scare them too much because there are things out here.
Cristina: But he does like that fear. Probably a little bit.
Jack: Maybe he does cruise by the road. Honest.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Quote horse unquote. But he doesn't mess with people and he doesn't chase people or anything. It just. Maybe he's just interested in humans. And it's like, oh, cool spot where you can see humans. You know, it's possible.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Which would. It totally has to be. I'm thinking the kids. There's no park there. I think the kids just like playing close to the road because they might see humans.
Cristina: Yeah. It might still be the fear thing of like, oh, we're gonna get something out of here, even if we're not gonna try anything. But we just know just being here.
Jack: Just being here, we'll see them, we'll.
Cristina: See them and we'll get something.
Jack: I don't think it's about getting something. I think it's about. Because why they're not getting anything. You use the fear to get to this side to then get adrenochrome. They're not doing anything. They're not getting to the side to hurt People, they're just kind of chilling there. The kids are just chilling there. Yeah, the horseman's just chilling there.
Cristina: And the trucker guy.
Jack: The trucker guy's with people.
Cristina: He's.
Jack: He's looking for something.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: I think that guy was from this side. It's a truck. Yeah, that guy was from this side. And he just doesn't want to lose it. And he's like, I'd rather they lose it than me. But the kids don't have that. They just. Kids and they wave and, you know, hey, cool, whatever.
Cristina: And the horse, man.
Jack: The horseman is the same. He's just, you know, they're cool people.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So it's weird, but there are peaceful ghosts here. I'm not even ghosts. They're just gin, man.
Cristina: But he's from that specific area. He's not from somewhere else in New Jersey. He's from Clinton Road.
Jack: Literally, from Clinton Road. It looks like there is on the other side, some civilization.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: And it's possible that that civilization is based on paradise, because that's where the jumbled mess began. On the flip side. On the flip side, there have been stories of people going on a straight line. There's nothing but Clinton Road as long as you don't turn.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And somehow leaving how they came in. So it could just somehow turn on you.
Cristina: Clinton Road.
Jack: Clinton Road. People have gone in a straight line 10 miles before you exit back to lights. People have gone in one line.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And found the exit through which they came in.
Cristina: That's right.
Jack: Without ever turning. So fear could be f****** with the surroundings.
Cristina: Okay. There is something just weird, naturally, about.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: Clinton Road itself.
Jack: And so because we went to a place with mad turns, even if we didn't take a turn, we multiply the fact that you can go in a straight line and exit the same entrance by the fact that there's like 30 turns in paradise. And now we have a road that could be anywhere.
Cristina: Weird.
Jack: Very strange. Now, this next one is very literal because people describe it as this way, which is shadow people. Everything else they have not described as shadow people. This one, they literally use the word shadow people. Dark, human like figures seen darting between the trees, often in peripheral vision, which. Yes, that's just shadow people.
Cristina: That's great.
Jack: The thing is, this is the most reported sighting of something that seems to be responsive people. Look, they scatter away. I think there's a civilization. I think that that area has. And I think, based on what we're reading right now and what you said, that maybe the experiment isn't even in the future. Maybe it was on the other side.
Cristina: Mm.
Jack: And it seems like there's a civilization on the other side.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: It could just be something that happened, you know, not even that long ago.
Cristina: It just happens over there.
Jack: Just happens over there. Could be. Doesn't have to be in the future. Could just be on the other side. It's folding everything together.
Cristina: Yes. And they just see shadow people.
Jack: Just shadow people casually running around, just living life. Okay. Pine Baron's Devil. Occasional sightings of a creature resembling the Jersey Devil in the denser parts of the forest. And that's very simply a creature from the shadow realm.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Right.
Cristina: But is it the same? They're saying it's like the other one. It's not the same as the Jersey Devil.
Jack: They're saying it's almost identical.
Cristina: It's almost identical.
Jack: It might be the same creature type and, like, be in a different area.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: No, that's the least weird thing here. I think it's just a creature. It's like seeing a wetchange or some s***.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Like, oh, my God, it's a demon. It's like. I mean, that's as close as raw. Nicka Run.
Cristina: It's just wild animal somewhere else.
Jack: Like a really wide. It's like if you see a wet shudge, that's like coming across a grizzly bear.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Get those f*** out. No. H*** no. Get the f*** out of there. That s***'ll flip your car, bro. Eyes in the darkness. This is definitely, most likely gin. Again, the glowing eyes. These are just probably. We're seeing light glares on Jinn and we just so happen to be seeing the Djinn simultaneously. My idea is described as glowing eyes watching from the woods at night.
Cristina: That's pretty creepy. But yeah. Yeah.
Jack: If it's just being observed and you're seeing through the thin veil and they're looking at you.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Unseen forces which are. Again, feeling like one is being pushed or pulled. And that's. That could just easily be things coming through, walking by. And like in parts where the veil is thin but still not perfectly gone so that you can like, oh, wow, something just pushed me to the side. Oh, my God. There's something out here messing. And they're just walking by, but they don't see you. You don't see them, and you just touch and you're like, what the was that?
Cristina: I think that's. That's a good thing.
Jack: And it's actually one of the most described things happening. And it always happens on the main road. Anybody Gets out of their vehicle for any reason, they're usually like, what the.
Cristina: You didn't go out on the main road?
Jack: Yes, I didn't feel as though.
Cristina: Oh, okay.
Jack: We got out of the car. I got out of the car to look at the deer. I got out of the car to see why the car wasn't turning on. And I got out of the weeds. I just don't give a. If I'm gonna die, I'm gonna die. It is what it is.
Cristina: But you didn't see any eyes, though.
Jack: I didn't see any eyes. I saw the deer, the black guy in the KKK outfit. I saw the. I heard the children separate to the laughter. That wasn't necessarily children.
Cristina: Yeah, but you didn't see whatever.
Jack: No, I didn't see eyes, didn't see shadows or any of that stuff.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: But the weird moving roads and changing turns, that's pretty strange. And the fact that all of us saw that is weird. Minus Nunez, because from Nunez point of view, it was. We were just sitting and he just saw all of us go catatonic for a moment, which is. His story is worse than all of our stories. Yes, we all experience being somewhere, but now we have to unpack this because he says we pull over and we never get. We. He never saw the dirt road. He never saw paradise. We pull over, the car doesn't turn on. And from his point of view, all of us just sat there and thought really hard about what to do for a while. From our point of view, while that was happening, how the f*** do we get out of this mess we're in? Meanwhile, he's the only quiet one with us. We're just thinking, you know, nuna doesn't fear things. He's a special kind of person. He doesn't feel fear the way we do. So, you know, he's just quiet, watching us scramble.
Cristina: I don't know. That changes everything.
Jack: That changes everything because this falls into what you were saying about the judge. Did the judges go unconscious somewhere and his. Some other thing was in the shadow realm? Yes, because he says, we were just frozen in place, thinking. We say, bro, we were lost for like 30 minutes, homie. What do you mean you saw nothing? The three of us versus the one of you, bro, this is a different argument you're having.
Cristina: But is he right?
Jack: But is he right?
Cristina: I don't know. That's. That's really good. I don't know. That's so strange. That's just so out there. I don't know.
Jack: It's f****** Weird, bro. It's really strange. I don't know what to. There's a lot of complications here.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: Here is something that I believe is the veil thinning, which is melting trees that appear to melt or distort adding to the surreal landscape. I think this is just sort of the warped nature of the shadow realm being seen on this side. I think that's just areas where the notch is way turned up and we're just seeing what that side looks like.
Cristina: That's pretty cool.
Jack: My note for that was just likely trees in the shadow realm different than the wandering shadows in the forest. There are eerie shadows that move independent of sound, independent of structure, and independent of physical motion. This is strange because what they mean by independent of normal physical motion is they can go vertically and horizontally but in a walking human fashion.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Weird.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Like they'll just be walking and sort of like walking up into the sky suddenly.
Cristina: Because they're probably going up a building or something.
Jack: Yes.
Cristina: We just can't see it.
Jack: We don't see the building. We see the shadow.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Because they're the living thing.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So we don't see the structure.
Cristina: Kind of makes sense. Yeah.
Jack: Wow.
Cristina: It's weird. It would be weird to see, but it might make sense over there.
Jack: Yes. Informed enough. It's not disturbing to us because it seems like. Yeah, there's probably a structure there that we can't interact with. And it's just going up some stairs or something.
Cristina: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not that crazy. Okay.
Jack: Which then goes and supports again that there's buildings here.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: Which supports that there's a civilization in around Clinton Road. Shifting paths. Which is the problem we faced.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And that is the literal story I was getting to about people going in a straight line and then exiting directly where they came straight through. That's shifting paths.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Us entering Paradise Road. Paradise Road disappearing behind us. And us just being in Paradise Town and not finding the road horrifying. Until it's suddenly just, hey, it's somewhere else apparently. Let's exit. And somehow it still took us to Clinton Road back. It's like this was. We didn't take any turns. We took a turn to get here now. And it still took us to the same place. What the f***?
Cristina: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah.
Jack: Mysterious footprints.
Cristina: What does that mean?
Jack: Footprints that just begin and stop in the middle of a trail without a beginning point or an ending point. I think this just falls into more shadow realm stuff.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: Maybe this is a spot where the notch is particularly turned up and we can start to see them literally affecting our physical space. And then they get. Get far from whatever's causing that anomaly. And then we no longer see the footprints. They kept walking on their side, didn't just disappear on their end, but the veil is thinner, is more tight elsewhere. And it's thinner in this spot.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: So that's my theory for that.
Cristina: I think so. It's not that crazy.
Jack: I think this next one falls a lot with the kids, which is ghostly campers which seem to be around the road. These people just hanging around the road, camping. You oftentimes even see tents. Apparitions in campers setting up tents around fires near the road. But they don't look human.
Cristina: They don't look human.
Jack: They look like shadows. Even with light present weird. And proximity. When somebody goes to see these campers, they aren't there anymore. Even with the fire burning. You get closer and the fire itself starts to dim, dim, dim until there's nothing camping. I think they're camping by the sea. I think they're being just as much as we're on this side. Oh, Clinton Road. This attraction, Horseman's Traveling. The kids are chilling there because it's entertaining and fun. People are camping by this road.
Cristina: Yes. I wonder if they see ghosts like we see echoes. Like, it's still an interesting spot to hunt for echoes or find echoes to them.
Jack: Maybe they're finding the same thing. Yeah. Distortions from their path.
Cristina: Yeah. Like they think that's as cool as we find it cool. And that's why we go there.
Jack: 100. It could totally 1000% be based on these comparisons. There are people just chilling here, trying to see the same things we're doing.
Cristina: Yeah. So, yeah. It's probably even weirder. Whatever they're seeing is probably even weirder than what we're saying.
Jack: I mean, maybe not for them. Maybe like, you know, we hear about ghosts and, oh, my God, this place is haunted. And we see an old guy pushing a wheelbarrow and it's like, all right, well, they see a wet shud, John. A loop. And it's like, to us, I would look nuts. But to them it's just like, oh, yeah, the echo of the wolf. You know, the wolf died.
Cristina: Entertaining enough for them to want to hang out in that spot, though.
Jack: Yeah. They're trying to get themselves scared.
Cristina: Yeah.
Jack: And like, oh, wow. Cool.
Cristina: Yeah. Yeah.
Jack: It feels. It really, really just feels like they're people, bro. Like they're really gin. Even in text. Seem to just be people.
Cristina: I think so over there. Yes.
Jack: They're not bad people. There are bad people. There are some who are bad, but we got humans who are bad.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: You know? Yes. There's a dude in a truck also. I would argue that guy's just a human on that side.
Cristina: Possibly.
Jack: Yeah. The truck part kind of makes that argument pretty strong.
Cristina: Yeah, I think so.
Jack: Yeah, exactly like the truck. They're not building trucks over there, bro. Come on. And then the final note on this is the floating lanterns, which again supports this again of. They're usually by the road in the woods.
Cristina: They're just hanging out.
Jack: Just hanging out, bro. They're chilling, they're seeing, they're doing what we're doing. Except they don't have cars. That's it. They're just doing what we're doing.
Cristina: Yeah, that's just them hanging out, I think. Yeah. There's weird stuff happening over there. Like over here. Yes. And so it's an attraction to them too.
Jack: Now, a random point to toss in about my personal experience with, with the guy in the robe. I thought he had a machete, not a shotgun. And what we saw was a deer open. If that deer was horrified enough. And this guy knew what he was doing. He was trying to get to the other side, wasn't he? He was by himself trying to get.
Cristina: To the other side and he just killed some s***.
Jack: And he opened it. He wasn't covered in blood. It was just opened. Yeah, this guy probably took some organs out, Ambros. Just spitballing. I don't know. But you're in the right place.
Cristina: You're in the right place for sure.
Jack: You're in the right place. If ever there was a maybe you're just trying to communicate. We know that the Vikings did that. They consumed a crap ton until they started hearing voices. And then those voices started guiding them and they turned it into a place that they could just casually walk there and interact with, quote the gods, unquote. Yes, the gods knew where to go and they knew where to go to just effortlessly interact with one another. Which, by the way, in theory, we could still do that today. We would just require killing a s*** ton of people.
Cristina: Okay.
Jack: But in theory, we could have a perfect, in sync, one to one communication with the other side. And I think we don't need to make it. I think maybe that exists somewhere in Clinton Road already and that somebody might know it. You know where I think it is, and I think we all think it's in the same f****** place. It's in the castle.
Cristina: Okay. Are we gonna get to the Castle.
Jack: We're gonna get to that castle.
Cristina: Okay, cool.
Jack: Yeah. The next part is about three times as long as these two parts and is the one I called significant. These are the things that are obviously something to look at. Everything else we talked about in this episode and last episode. Interesting.
Cristina: Yes.
Jack: And for last episode. Yeah, for last episode was definitely the most important because we got things to look at. For this side, there's less to look at, although there's still some things to look at. Mainly not things here. But what this made us think of. Yes, next time, I believe 100% of that we have to look at, but we'll get to that. Anyways, as usual, if you guys have any input, any additional information or anything you could think about, feel free to contact us about it.
Cristina: Tell us.
Jack: You can tell us on our socials. That's on TikTok, on Instagram, on Facebook, on X, anywhere. Anywhere, Anywhere. At just Convopod. Yeah, we got kicked out of YouTube and Reddit. Just Convopod.
Cristina: Remember to subscribe, rate and review the show.
Jack: Yes. And word of mouth is the most overpowered thing in the world. If you find what we are talking about interesting and you want to show somebody else what this is, feel free to do so because we will appreciate it.
Cristina: This has been the Rambling podcast. Take nothing personal. Thanks for listening. Bye.
Jack: Sam.
Cristina: The podcast is hosted by Christina Colazo and Jack Thomas, produced by Lynn Taylor and published by Great Thoughts info, art by Zero Lupo and logo by Seth McAllister with social media managed by Amber Black.
